I really appreciate the way you describe autism more as a colour wheel than a gradient. I think that’s a very good visual for me to understand. I’m a bit unsure about the language I’m supposed to use when this kid in particular is so high functioning though. If we’re talking about a color wheel here, would it be fair to say he’s got a fairly desaturated form of autism then? Or that his color mostly blends in with the rest of the neurotypical class?
Or is it all just “masking”? How does autistic type masking differ from the masking everyone has to do just to fit into society at all?
To address some of your concerns here, I believe I’ve been somewhat misunderstood here and you’ve assumed something about me that isn’t true. I do talk to these kids all the time. It’s my job to talk to them and to understand them, and I do it with joy :)
This is not an assumption with the kid. I’m asking them and digging a bit deeper, and the kid tells me that he didn’t have his computer there.
I ask him if he brought it to school, and he did. It just wasn’t in front of him and he tells me he was more interested in the conversation he had with his classmate instead.
That’s fine, that’s not something I get annoyed with, I just go “alright, chop chop. Talk while you work, and you’ll be good” and the situation is solved.
When I only get “the PC isn’t here”, and we’ve been through this song and dance many a time before, then I do get a little exasperated, though not outwards, and I am flexible in the whole ordeal.
There’s a reason I put “excuse” in quotation marks in my original post here. It’s a bad reason, or at least not the full reason. That’s what the original question was about, too.
So I understand that you’re very, very passionate about this topic, and I get that you try to keep it respectful as well, but I will add that I also definitely feel mischaracterized here, and that makes the message a lot harder to accept for me (though I do agree with your points here and I also appreciate your color wheel explanation).
I basically feel scolded for something I didn’t do. Even if you might not mean to, it feels like you’re calling me a failure as an educator, and I can guess most people who had a teacher like that didn’t learn a lot from them.
It’s a good response, which I hope they’ll receive genuinely.
But when someone responds with a two-part treatise, my suspicion is that it’s usually not about you, so I wouldn’t take it as a personal scolding.
What I often see, autistic or not, is that people often respond to broader issues reflected in the wording and framing of an individual comment and want to respond to that. This is fair and acceptable as long as one differentiates which part is responding to the individual comment(ator) and which part is the broader issue.
Ironically @SaphiraGrace, while providing great information about autism spectrum, has made assumptions about you and your own experiences by lecturing you about not making assumptions, rather than asking you about what you meant.
Still this is in context of neurodivergent folks getting the shafted end of assumptions in general, so I must respect that. It does demonstrate though that reflecting on our own assumptions and treating each other kindly is something everyone must practice if we are to be responsible for how our behaviour impacts others, whether we’re neurodivergent or not.
I appreciate that a ton, honestly. Thanks for your comment.
I did definitely learn something here though, but am also left with a lot of questions. I dove into the ICD-11 to read more about the diagnosis.
Didn’t find much about the differences in nuance regarding masking to fit into society for neurodivergents and masking to fit into society for neurotypicals, but I’m sure I’ll find more soon now that the question has been formulated.
Anyway, thank you again. Helps put my mind at ease :)
For sure. And your job is deeply important and anyone who takes it seriously, with kindness and an open mind, is aces in my book.
Re: masking, my ignorant hot take would be that the difference is less about a difference in kind of masking rather than a difference in the amount (frequency, duration, intensity) of masking. I’d say society places much higher demands in cognitive load from masking on neurodivergent folks overall compared to neurotypicals, because neurotypicals will often naturally behave in socially acceptable ways… because what’s socially acceptable is often defined (not exclusively) by what is typical.
To address your question about high functioning and masking. Those definitely do not imply a “desaturated autism”, such is simply a social perception from outsiders.
Somewhere within the values of their colour wheel there is potential to develop certain skills. Some of those skills may as you say blend in either because they are the same skill or they developed an unique skill that is perceived as normalcy.
Different situations require different skills, being in a classroom is different from being at home, a dinner party or having to take the bus.
Some kids may have it easier to be perceived as high functional in your class because they have matching skills. But are unable to function in any other situations.
They are masking in the sense that you are unable to perceive that they do not function the same way in situations where you are not there. In fact your personal experience may make your an easier person to talk to and create a bias of seeing higher functions.
I know an example of someone who functioned very well in school, never was suspected of being related to autism, believed they where normal themselves, had a friend group, good grades. Then ended up in a mental facility months after graduating because they had no way of understanding how life worked or how to maintain there current social relations beyond the very rigid and rule based nature of the school they had been going to.
The kids who developed their own skills may appear not recognizable within this group but may actual suffer an intense energy drain that you can’t see. Potentially crashing some other times.
They are masking what i would call a form of imposer syndrome. They only show what they know you will accept as normal. For me this means showing results and hiding the methods.
I am biased to call this group highly (differently) functional because i am a part of it. But my experience is that people genuinely often do not understand my natural flow of reasoning and constructive thinking to the point of dismissal and ridicule. But i have learned how to frame my results in a form that they will recognize as the correct answer (even if i feel that answer is barely acceptably accurate).
There are times i am so drained and so low i stop being able to form sentences properly and people who don’t know me well will look at me like i am clearly intellectually challenged (i am reasoning perfectly fine within my mind, i don’t need language to do so), then other times i impress someone with something basic and now they expect me to be a genius every single task. This is the “why” the distinctions of mild or severe is harmful. Correct functioning is always bound to a context to function within.
Very useful clarification. Thank you for sharing! I’ll refrain from calling autism mild or severe in the future. That’s the wording that the institution that tells teachers what needs these kids have use for them, so I just took that as a base when I talked about them too.
Could you elaborate on the hiding method, but present results-part?
I find understanding people who think in different ways than me to be one of the most interesting things in the world, and something I appreciate the hell out of.
I recognize that some of the older teachers I work with can get annoyed if you don’t do it in their method, or they can dismiss an answer if they don’t understand the method in an instant.
I’m honestly constantly in friction with these teachers because I am “nicer” to the kids than they are when we grade tests. I spend a lot more time per test, but will always try to understand the kids’ reasoning first and foremost, and it’s always fun when I find ways of thinking that are totally valid, but I had never considered.
Its hard to explain hiding methods because they depend on the situation. Its much easier as an adult then as a child because i am not questioned as much.
On my job i can work mostly independently and have acquired positive credibility.
I’ll give you a pattern i distinctly remember from school.
Pre context: I was always unable to concentrate to the live lesson that was occurring i still cant do phone calls for the same reason. Because i often still stared in the right direction this was more frequently not noticed (though enough to still have the label). Then when we had to do a task i suddenly notice everyone moving and i had no idea what the class even about.
But i was very good at independently interpreting the knowledge in a given handbook or on a blackboard, very quickly. So in the beginning i was able to catch up and start on the assignment during this same time and eventually i started to secretly learn independently during the class.
I have 2 distinct memories of situations that occurred as a result.
i was scolded multiple times for not paying attention, which did happen frequently but now was because i was obviously looking in the book and writing when i was supposed to listen. But from my perspective i was paying attention to the source material actively doing my best to understand it. That really broke something me.
we got a new math teacher in middle of the year. They gave us a test but apparently my class was not yet taught the formulas required. This only came to light when someone complained as we got the graded test back. The teacher singled my test out as proof that we had already seen it because “i” did have the correct answer…
My class was not happy.
For the record i have never been able to memorize any mathematical formula. Instead i use the question to estimate a possible answer, reverse engineer a formula from the deducted answer to then solve the problem normally. In some way this will pattern on its own where i first solve it my own way in order to understand what other people expected and then writing down those expectations is a form of masking and hiding.
On my job i am selective to who i let in on certain “shortcuts” and alternative flows that i discovered.
If this reply lacks sense, i typed it in 3 parts over the course of hours.
Hah, I see. It’s real interesting. A few of the kids of mine have the same way of working, so we’ve agreed on them being allowed to work the way they want to. If they need computers to work, they’re allowed to. If they struggle to listen to the lecture for the rest of the class, that’s fine. As long as they’re not disruptive, they’re allowed to work on stuff their own way.
Also, I also don’t like teaching rote memorisation-stuff. I just give the kids formulas on tests and ask them to understand which one to use. No memorization, just understanding.
My philosophy is just that “if you understand it, you won’t need to memorize it”.
In any case, I’m sorry to hear you’ve had such a shitty school situation. That’s not the school-system I’m used to. I’m used to looking for situations where the kids can prove what they can do, not looking for what they can’t do. If kids are disruptive, underperforming or whatever, we find out why. We may not always be able to solve all the problems, but we spend a significant amount of time trying to accommodate for the kids’ needs.
Oh damn apparently i already posted but i was still was writing and editing that comment, busy day today.
I am in awe because of this line:
“My philosophy is just that “if you understand it, you won’t need to memorize it”
This is not my philosophy as it is observation of reality.
One of my weaknesses is my memory and in a plan i may forget what step i am on. But if you really understand it you can deduct what step your on and the logical next. Its somewhat of a life hack to get things done.
When i am online on a public facing website i am usually from a somewhere USA… In context of your question you probably mean what school system, i am honestly most familiar with those where from central Europe.
I had good people as teachers but the systems they where supposed to use like _focus on grades _ didn’t work for me. I learn because i really want to know not to win or be perceived as successful.
I think the focus on grades is more harmful than helpful, to be honest. It just puts a ton of pressure on them to perform instead of learning.
And yeah, regarding philosophy/observation of reality, I agree! In case I wasn’t clear, I mean philosophy as in… teaching philosophy, or mantra, as it were.
There are definitely times where you just gotta memorize something… like names. It’s difficult to “understand” those (though not impossible if there’s a pattern. Friend of mine has siblings all named the same base word with minor changes.)
But yes. Math, science, social studies, law, etc. You don’t need to memorize almost any of it if you UNDERSTAND IT. You can reason out dates of historic events, you can reasonably guess why the mass immigration into the US stopped in like the 1920’s, etc.
I really appreciate the way you describe autism more as a colour wheel than a gradient. I think that’s a very good visual for me to understand. I’m a bit unsure about the language I’m supposed to use when this kid in particular is so high functioning though. If we’re talking about a color wheel here, would it be fair to say he’s got a fairly desaturated form of autism then? Or that his color mostly blends in with the rest of the neurotypical class?
Or is it all just “masking”? How does autistic type masking differ from the masking everyone has to do just to fit into society at all?
To address some of your concerns here, I believe I’ve been somewhat misunderstood here and you’ve assumed something about me that isn’t true. I do talk to these kids all the time. It’s my job to talk to them and to understand them, and I do it with joy :)
This is not an assumption with the kid. I’m asking them and digging a bit deeper, and the kid tells me that he didn’t have his computer there.
I ask him if he brought it to school, and he did. It just wasn’t in front of him and he tells me he was more interested in the conversation he had with his classmate instead. That’s fine, that’s not something I get annoyed with, I just go “alright, chop chop. Talk while you work, and you’ll be good” and the situation is solved.
When I only get “the PC isn’t here”, and we’ve been through this song and dance many a time before, then I do get a little exasperated, though not outwards, and I am flexible in the whole ordeal.
There’s a reason I put “excuse” in quotation marks in my original post here. It’s a bad reason, or at least not the full reason. That’s what the original question was about, too.
So I understand that you’re very, very passionate about this topic, and I get that you try to keep it respectful as well, but I will add that I also definitely feel mischaracterized here, and that makes the message a lot harder to accept for me (though I do agree with your points here and I also appreciate your color wheel explanation).
I basically feel scolded for something I didn’t do. Even if you might not mean to, it feels like you’re calling me a failure as an educator, and I can guess most people who had a teacher like that didn’t learn a lot from them.
It’s a good response, which I hope they’ll receive genuinely. But when someone responds with a two-part treatise, my suspicion is that it’s usually not about you, so I wouldn’t take it as a personal scolding.
What I often see, autistic or not, is that people often respond to broader issues reflected in the wording and framing of an individual comment and want to respond to that. This is fair and acceptable as long as one differentiates which part is responding to the individual comment(ator) and which part is the broader issue.
Ironically @SaphiraGrace, while providing great information about autism spectrum, has made assumptions about you and your own experiences by lecturing you about not making assumptions, rather than asking you about what you meant.
Still this is in context of neurodivergent folks getting the shafted end of assumptions in general, so I must respect that. It does demonstrate though that reflecting on our own assumptions and treating each other kindly is something everyone must practice if we are to be responsible for how our behaviour impacts others, whether we’re neurodivergent or not.
I appreciate that a ton, honestly. Thanks for your comment.
I did definitely learn something here though, but am also left with a lot of questions. I dove into the ICD-11 to read more about the diagnosis.
Didn’t find much about the differences in nuance regarding masking to fit into society for neurodivergents and masking to fit into society for neurotypicals, but I’m sure I’ll find more soon now that the question has been formulated.
Anyway, thank you again. Helps put my mind at ease :)
For sure. And your job is deeply important and anyone who takes it seriously, with kindness and an open mind, is aces in my book.
Re: masking, my ignorant hot take would be that the difference is less about a difference in kind of masking rather than a difference in the amount (frequency, duration, intensity) of masking. I’d say society places much higher demands in cognitive load from masking on neurodivergent folks overall compared to neurotypicals, because neurotypicals will often naturally behave in socially acceptable ways… because what’s socially acceptable is often defined (not exclusively) by what is typical.
That definitely makes sense to me. Thanks for bouncing ideas like these with me :)
To address your question about high functioning and masking. Those definitely do not imply a “desaturated autism”, such is simply a social perception from outsiders.
Somewhere within the values of their colour wheel there is potential to develop certain skills. Some of those skills may as you say blend in either because they are the same skill or they developed an unique skill that is perceived as normalcy.
Different situations require different skills, being in a classroom is different from being at home, a dinner party or having to take the bus.
Some kids may have it easier to be perceived as high functional in your class because they have matching skills. But are unable to function in any other situations. They are masking in the sense that you are unable to perceive that they do not function the same way in situations where you are not there. In fact your personal experience may make your an easier person to talk to and create a bias of seeing higher functions. I know an example of someone who functioned very well in school, never was suspected of being related to autism, believed they where normal themselves, had a friend group, good grades. Then ended up in a mental facility months after graduating because they had no way of understanding how life worked or how to maintain there current social relations beyond the very rigid and rule based nature of the school they had been going to.
The kids who developed their own skills may appear not recognizable within this group but may actual suffer an intense energy drain that you can’t see. Potentially crashing some other times. They are masking what i would call a form of imposer syndrome. They only show what they know you will accept as normal. For me this means showing results and hiding the methods. I am biased to call this group highly (differently) functional because i am a part of it. But my experience is that people genuinely often do not understand my natural flow of reasoning and constructive thinking to the point of dismissal and ridicule. But i have learned how to frame my results in a form that they will recognize as the correct answer (even if i feel that answer is barely acceptably accurate).
There are times i am so drained and so low i stop being able to form sentences properly and people who don’t know me well will look at me like i am clearly intellectually challenged (i am reasoning perfectly fine within my mind, i don’t need language to do so), then other times i impress someone with something basic and now they expect me to be a genius every single task. This is the “why” the distinctions of mild or severe is harmful. Correct functioning is always bound to a context to function within.
Very useful clarification. Thank you for sharing! I’ll refrain from calling autism mild or severe in the future. That’s the wording that the institution that tells teachers what needs these kids have use for them, so I just took that as a base when I talked about them too.
Could you elaborate on the hiding method, but present results-part? I find understanding people who think in different ways than me to be one of the most interesting things in the world, and something I appreciate the hell out of.
I recognize that some of the older teachers I work with can get annoyed if you don’t do it in their method, or they can dismiss an answer if they don’t understand the method in an instant.
I’m honestly constantly in friction with these teachers because I am “nicer” to the kids than they are when we grade tests. I spend a lot more time per test, but will always try to understand the kids’ reasoning first and foremost, and it’s always fun when I find ways of thinking that are totally valid, but I had never considered.
Its hard to explain hiding methods because they depend on the situation. Its much easier as an adult then as a child because i am not questioned as much.
On my job i can work mostly independently and have acquired positive credibility.
I’ll give you a pattern i distinctly remember from school.
Pre context: I was always unable to concentrate to the live lesson that was occurring i still cant do phone calls for the same reason. Because i often still stared in the right direction this was more frequently not noticed (though enough to still have the label). Then when we had to do a task i suddenly notice everyone moving and i had no idea what the class even about.
But i was very good at independently interpreting the knowledge in a given handbook or on a blackboard, very quickly. So in the beginning i was able to catch up and start on the assignment during this same time and eventually i started to secretly learn independently during the class.
I have 2 distinct memories of situations that occurred as a result.
i was scolded multiple times for not paying attention, which did happen frequently but now was because i was obviously looking in the book and writing when i was supposed to listen. But from my perspective i was paying attention to the source material actively doing my best to understand it. That really broke something me.
we got a new math teacher in middle of the year. They gave us a test but apparently my class was not yet taught the formulas required. This only came to light when someone complained as we got the graded test back. The teacher singled my test out as proof that we had already seen it because “i” did have the correct answer… My class was not happy.
For the record i have never been able to memorize any mathematical formula. Instead i use the question to estimate a possible answer, reverse engineer a formula from the deducted answer to then solve the problem normally. In some way this will pattern on its own where i first solve it my own way in order to understand what other people expected and then writing down those expectations is a form of masking and hiding.
On my job i am selective to who i let in on certain “shortcuts” and alternative flows that i discovered.
If this reply lacks sense, i typed it in 3 parts over the course of hours.
Hah, I see. It’s real interesting. A few of the kids of mine have the same way of working, so we’ve agreed on them being allowed to work the way they want to. If they need computers to work, they’re allowed to. If they struggle to listen to the lecture for the rest of the class, that’s fine. As long as they’re not disruptive, they’re allowed to work on stuff their own way.
Also, I also don’t like teaching rote memorisation-stuff. I just give the kids formulas on tests and ask them to understand which one to use. No memorization, just understanding.
My philosophy is just that “if you understand it, you won’t need to memorize it”.
In any case, I’m sorry to hear you’ve had such a shitty school situation. That’s not the school-system I’m used to. I’m used to looking for situations where the kids can prove what they can do, not looking for what they can’t do. If kids are disruptive, underperforming or whatever, we find out why. We may not always be able to solve all the problems, but we spend a significant amount of time trying to accommodate for the kids’ needs.
May I ask where you’re from?
I’m teaching in Norway.
Oh damn apparently i already posted but i was still was writing and editing that comment, busy day today.
I am in awe because of this line:
“My philosophy is just that “if you understand it, you won’t need to memorize it”
This is not my philosophy as it is observation of reality.
One of my weaknesses is my memory and in a plan i may forget what step i am on. But if you really understand it you can deduct what step your on and the logical next. Its somewhat of a life hack to get things done.
When i am online on a public facing website i am usually from a somewhere USA… In context of your question you probably mean what school system, i am honestly most familiar with those where from central Europe.
I had good people as teachers but the systems they where supposed to use like _focus on grades _ didn’t work for me. I learn because i really want to know not to win or be perceived as successful.
I think the focus on grades is more harmful than helpful, to be honest. It just puts a ton of pressure on them to perform instead of learning.
And yeah, regarding philosophy/observation of reality, I agree! In case I wasn’t clear, I mean philosophy as in… teaching philosophy, or mantra, as it were.
There are definitely times where you just gotta memorize something… like names. It’s difficult to “understand” those (though not impossible if there’s a pattern. Friend of mine has siblings all named the same base word with minor changes.)
But yes. Math, science, social studies, law, etc. You don’t need to memorize almost any of it if you UNDERSTAND IT. You can reason out dates of historic events, you can reasonably guess why the mass immigration into the US stopped in like the 1920’s, etc.
So that’s how I try to teach.