As human rights groups continue to call out war crimes committed by the Israeli military, we speak to the only U.S. diplomat to publicly resign from the Biden administration over its policy on Israel.
We first spoke to Hala Rharrit when she resigned from the State Department in April, citing the illegal and deceptive nature of U.S. policy in the Middle East. “We continue to willfully violate laws so that we surge U.S. military assistance to Israel,” she says after more than a year of Israel’s war on Gaza.
Rharrit says she found the Biden administration unmovable in its “counterproductive policy,” which she believes has gravely harmed U.S. interests in the Middle East. “We are going to feel the repercussions of that for years, decades, generations.”
I really want to know what the actual reason is that we’re so boneheaded, so obstinate, so relentless in our “support” for Isreal no matter how fucking crazy they get…
Is it really just more money for defense contractors? It’s it really fear of AIPAC? Is it even more fucking absurd and we have actual Christian dominionists trying to bring Armageddon whether it’s the Democrats or Republicans?
I just don’t understand it…
It’s pretty simple.
There is an election in November and noone wants to anger the power AIPAC lobby or Jewish voters.
theres about 7.5 jewish voters split between republicans and dems. Theres about 3.7 arab american voters which are part of the 4.45 million muslim voters. Jews arent a voting block of a size to be overly concerned about. And the dems probably lose more votes supporting israel than they gain. So this is about money, not votes.
Fair enough. Didn’t realise there were so many Arab voters.
I agree. It is about money.
AIPAC is very well funded and powerful.
tldr: the US is still supporting Israel is because Israel has historically been extremely beneficial to US interests.
full:
The reason is that Israel has been a steadfast ally in advancing and defending us interests for half a century, and there is no one else in the Middle East who could play that role half as effectively or reliably.
there was zero chance of the US immediately cutting off aid after 50 years of aid, especially while dozens of other countries have also been providing aid and are still providing aid to Israel.
that was never an option and should not have been an expectation from the public, who only has that expectation because most people have only recently learned about the Palestinian invasion by Israel that’s been happening for over half a century.
One year is not much time internationally or diplomatically. it’s not much time for intelligence agencies to determine what is happening, especially in the fog of war, and it isn’t much time for effects of actions to be seen, no matter what actions are taken.
in israel, The US has an attack dog to deal with US enemies in the Middle East, and now the attack dog has broken its leash and isn’t responding to commands. Netanyahu is aging, centralized power, and is acting literally insane.
while I have been loyal, this completely separate nation has saliently chosen to have been loyal, although they were and are under no obligation to be loyal to the demands of the United States, as is now being seen.
it’s only been one year, and regardless of what you hear, diplomatically the US is continually trying different tactics to stem the violent efforts of a nation with plenty of resources that has no obligation to listen to the US other than continued financial support, that it has plenty of already and has many other sources of aid.
The reason is that Israel has been a steadfast ally in advancing and defending us interests for half a century
what a load of crap. Israel almost always has right wing leadership and those leaders run far more billboards celebrating their relationship with Putin that with the US. We have no operational bases there. They havent participated in any of our military conflicts. They are not an extension of US power. If they were, we have operations happening out of there.
So to counter basically your whole point: You know how Reagan stopped the Israeli bombing of Beirut in 20 minutes with a phone call in 1982? That’s how someone who actually wants Israel to stop does it. Biden isn’t stopping them because he doesn’t want to, not because his administration is “diplomatically the US is continually trying different tactics to stem the violent efforts of a nation…”.
Don’t defend genocide support, it’s not a good look.
Removed by mod
I don’t think you can defend inaction regarding genocide as “diplomatically the US is continually trying different tactics to stem the violent efforts of a nation”.
The difference in circumstances is that, unlike 1940s, or any other period until 2010s, it was visible within months by historians and other civilians, without a doubt that what was happening was genocide. Because of the internet, photo equipment and general speed of communication, inability to delete communications. None of this “One year is not much time internationally or diplomatically. it’s not much time for intelligence agencies to determine what is happening”, they knew very well.
Israel has been running a mega propaganda machine especially since the start of october events, ordering news sources how they should cover the situation. If there weren’t enough red flags, that is a big one.
I think the conclusion should be that the relevant parts of US gov are either weak and careless, either exceptionally naive and old, or! there is something malicious that has been happening (and this seems most likely, considering the amount of propaganda).
But I guess going back a bit and throwing away all ideas of discussion, you sure like to ad-hominem the other commenter.
All i follow on youtube are archaeological channels, and i was surprised by the sudden influx of videos on israel the very week israel started attacking. I noticed one channel that was hosting an israeli co-host stopped collaborating very soon, and months later posted a very nuanced, very politely angry video. But the number of videos establishing the legitimacy of israel all at once at that time cannot be anything but planned. Even National Geographic had a video out on the origins of Israel, at a timing that is so very suspect.
Interesting, wouldnt have thought they went for youtube channels as well.
My knowledge is that especially national news channels were targeted by Israeli “ambassadors” telling what is happening in the war and how it should be covered. Which is just complete utter disregard for journalism; just propaganda.
that, and murdering all the journalists.
Israel targets all angles of media. Have a look at reddit and you’ll easily find many pro-Israel bots. I remember once two different bots posting letter by letter the same comment in the same thread, some 8 hours apart. And that was ten years ago.
It is important to note though that it is not just Israel doing that. Any larger power has some sort of programs to influence public opinion and spread propaganda. Just that some get called out, like Russian bots.
I did notice this “we need Israel strategic location” as a way to justify the support to Israel.
This fails quickly with any checking of what is happening, and if anything it shine a light on the hypocrisy of the government.
The truth is, most of the US politicians have “AIPAC” guy and getting paid to make sure nothing happens including the prisedent.
We dont need Israel for much of anything. We have an air base in jordan a few miles from the Israel border. We have turkey, Cyprus, the UAE, bases all over, even inside Syria, really everywhere except for inside Israel. To our military Israel is completely useless, and a potent risk of “accidental” SAM launches.
And if anyone seriously thinks the lack of bases inside their territory means They work for us, instead of the reality which is our politicians work for them, then you’re just disregarding the proof thats clearly there even by the pattern of base presences, and the fact that democratic politicians are roped into a far right wing genocide. The idea that they are our “ally”, that they are our “aircraft carrier in the middle east” and that they are a proxy for the US just doesnt match any of these facts. We’re being fed Israeli propoganda and a lot of you are lapping it up because its most convenient for you.
“I don’t think you can defend inaction regarding genocide”
have you stopped paying taxes that are funding Israel?
what is your defense regarding your inaction by rejecting your complicit funding of genocide?
“…within months by historians and other civilians, without a doubt that what was happening was genocide”
close, what happened was people started paying attention because the executions and bombings were happening more frequently than usual.
anyone who was aware of and understood the history of Israel’s colonization of Palestine for the past 50 years and they’re complete Power disparity agrees it was and is “without a doubt” a genocide years before 2023.
it’s just that most people only recently started paying attention.
“they knew very well.”
Yes, this is what I said. it invalidates your next few assumptions:
“I think the conclusion should be that the relevant parts of US gov are either weak and careless, either exceptionally naive and old, or! there is something malicious that has been happening”
these are the simplest and most comfortable conclusions for someone unversed in politics to imagine.
blame it on simple, fundamental tragic and all-encompassing character flaws that you importantly don’t imagine apply to yourself, storybook infirmities that simply need to be remedied and then all of history and politics can be swept aside for a beautiful future, in which every world leader clasps the hands of every other.
something that you can point out and say “well that isn’t me, that isn’t a problem that we’ve all contributed to, this is the out of touch portions of my government”
but this isn’t a unique situation, this isn’t the only genocide currently happening, genocides don’t occur are allowed to continue because of carelessness.
this is another terrible situation among countless others, all of which are important and complex, that is not happening because the US government has some fundamental climactic “weak”, “careless”, “old” or “naive” flaw.
not least importantly because the US government does not have the power. you imagine it to have over other sovereign Nations.
as for your hopeful reasonings:
If they were careless, they would have believed the initial assessment and fabrications of Israel, sent US soldiers in and destroyed the rest of Palestine.
If they were weak or naive, they would have buckled under the first campus protest and stopped providing all aid to Israel.
if they were old… well, the government official you are likely most familiar with is old, but experience is not something to be discarded or sneered at.
these are fanciful single remedies that are irrelevant to the the complicated historical reality currently unfolding.
“there is something malicious that has been happening”
yes…Israel is concluding a genocide.
nefarious? not anymore so than it has been for the past 50 years.
Israel’s military superiority and support of US interests is valuable. despite their most recent actions, it is still valuable.
that assessment is not made carelessly or naively, and support for and departures from normal US policy regarding Israel and Palestine are not being made by weak people.
“throwing away all ideas of discussion”
you sure scribble down a lot of ideas for someone throwing away all ideas of discussion.
“you sure like to ad-hominem the other commenter”
their comments and ideas, not the “commenter”.
I don’t fault people for their ability or level of reasoning, but I do fault their presentation of unconsidered whimsical invective, baseless personal attacks and lack of respect for context, sources, facts and discussion.
particularly if they forget or ignore what the point they are supposedly responding to is, or respond to facts with demonstrably false assumptions or attacks they don’t bother to even briefly support with evidence or logic.
I agree that I could be more gracious in the likely event that their inconsiderate attacks or ignorance or disregard of the facts can be tied directly to their fundamental personal abilities.
I have been thinking about this recently.
“you sure like to ad-hominem the other commenter”
their comments and ideas, not the “commenter”.
reading your comment makes me feel like I’m watching you eat glue while pinning a ribbon on your own chest for best “stick-to-ut-ive-ness.”
that was such a shockingly useless and ignorant answer.
how do you come up with something that off the mark?
Bullshit. You’re completely unnecessarily and unhelpfully attacking the commenter with remarks like that. At least have the guts to own up to it.
This is not the most popular opinion on Lemmy these days, but it’s still an immense stretch to want to call the war in Gaza a genocide.
If Israel wanted to kill off the Gazans, they would just have to start carpet bombing certain areas. At this rate, it would take them 50 years to do it, which would be immensely stupid.
What Israel has done is turn up the dial with regards to acceptable collateral damage - just like the US did themselves to break costly sieges like Fallujah, Mosul and Raqqa.
No-one who is appaled at the civilian casualties has actually ever come up with a valid alternative method to eradicate IS or in this case Hamas or Hezbollah without causing any or even less civilian casualties. The US government knows and accepts this, so in public they’ll play the pacifist while in reality they’re accepting the ‘necessary’ violence.
Not sure where you’re pulling this out of.
They literally are carpet bombing civillians, for a while now, as well as brutally blocking any humanitarian aid (such as food). They are literally using starvation to exterminate the Gaza strip, Nazi efficiency.
That and more, and Bibbi himself said with biblical flair: “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass” Not out of context. The context was the “war” with Gaza.
Even with a minimal amount of history taught at school you can piece together a very very very Nazi way of thinking. Everything is Hamas, Even the children, the hospitals, all infrastructure conducive to life and order. “Keep killing all leaders, contain, and eradicate with any means (such as starvation)”
Just by numbers, the Hamas attack that “started this” was 1.5k (Hamas) vs 1k (Israel) dead, which Israel knew about and was informed many times by intelligence agencies, and happened by a breach of a wall that is lined with 24/7 monitoring, they just chose not to be prepared, in a strong “Never let a good crisis go to waste.” Churchillian way. This attack “caused” Israel to start carpet bombing, and murdering indiscriminately (even shooting children included) and killing 50k Palestinians (not taking into account the wounded, suffering, and deathly malnutritioned).
But hell, you don’t need to listen to the logic of some random guy on the internet, why not just read this, ICC formally declaring the factual reality: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state
That and more, and Bibbi himself said with biblical flair: “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass” Not out of context. The context was the “war” with Gaza.
I think it is high time that we acknowledged the elephant in the room.
“God’s chosen people” = “ubermensch”
“God’s promised land” = “lebensraum”
Do you have any source on the carpet bombing you claim they’ve been doing for a while?
If Israel wanted to do a genocide, they could just roll out the carpet bombs and spread them over the refugee tent cities. They’d easily kill 50-100k every few hours. That way, it wouldn’t take 50 years.
But in reality, we see 50-100 deaths per day. That just doesn’t jive
My answer is vague because: 1-I wasn’t answering the OP, I was replying to you. 2-I don’t like to engage with the “they’re trying but it’s so so complicated” sort of genocide apologia much because it’s a pain in the ass.
I’ll just say: Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy and the easiest way to falsify a statement is counterexample, so I got you a counterexample. Now can you state exactly what different between the 1980s and today generates rhe difference we see today? If anything Israel was more important to US interests back then due to their role in the cold war. Also, state department employees, who are presumably well versed in international relations, are resigning. Your framing that only ignorant layman are angry with the Biden administration is patently false.
Edit: I forgot to mention: Drop the ad hominem. Reported.
The reason is that Israel has been a steadfast ally in advancing and defending us interests for half a century
Tell that to the crew of the USS Liberty.
a steadfast ally in advacing and defending us interests
How? At least militarily they’ve only ever been a liability.
there was zero chance of the US immediately cutting off aid after 50 years of aid, especially while dozens of other countries have also been providing aid and are still providing aid to Israel.
Those other dozen countries are only doing because they follow the USs lead. And maybe Germany being hysterical about it instead of learning from its past, that never again must mean never again for everyone…
The worst stuff in the world always comes down to money, power, and bigotry.
I overheard a brief conversation between Trump-supporting veterans last week. Youngish guys, so not your average Vietnam boomer. It was startling to hear them talk about what’s going on in Israel in two stark terms:
-
They talked about Israel being savagely “attacked” by Iran. Not Hamas, but literally Iran.
-
They hope the military turns Iran to glass.
No mention of Palestine or Gaza at all, nor of the history of Israeli aggression. All they see is that Arabic nations launched an attack on Israel, and Israel is “fighting back.” It’s a mini holy war to these guys, and I’d guess a sizeable bipartisan coalition within the military industrial complex sees it exactly the same way. Palestine, to them, is just collateral damage in a broader war that was started by “them.”
That’s not a point of view singular to the military. It’s a pretty stock conservative take.
I didn’t say the former, and my opinion doesn’t preclude the latter.
Then why include that they’re veterans? That’d be like me saying I saw four people, all black, discussing how they were going illegally pass water out in the voting line.
Including that bit doesn’t give us any more relevant information. Unless of course I’m trying to push an opinion about black people.
Edit - but->bit
Polite conversation not your strong suit? I don’t have an axe to grind here, dude, just making small talk.
And yet as an OIF vet I feel weirdly targeted.
Then offer your opinion about how a military operation looks to you. I was literally at a charity even for veterans and overheard a group of people talking who I don’t usually hear from. And they didn’t know I was listening, so they were transparently honest about how it looks to them. It startled me because it was a wildly different framing than I was familiar with. So when the person asked what exactly is going on beneath the surface, I offered an anecdote that was timely and relevant.
Don’t take everything so personally.
Pretty sure OP is asking why the US gov relentlessly supports the genocide, not maga morons.
I’d guess a sizeable bipartisan coalition within the military industrial complex sees it exactly the same way.
They did address that point.
…which is why I said:
I’d guess a sizeable bipartisan coalition within the military industrial complex sees it exactly the same way
Anti-muslim Racism has been pretty common and accepted in the West since even before 9/11 (though it definitelly exploded in the aftermath of it) plus Jews are seen as Whites Of A Different Religion (it’s not for nothing that Zionists since the very beginning constantly repeat the “Israel has Western values” mantra).
So for those people the entire reading of the situation, judgment of the actions of the participants and definition of what’s an acceptable or unaccetable response is anchored on what their anti-Muslim and pro-White prejudices tell them is the character of everybody in each of the sides involved (or, in simple terms, who are the “good guys” for whom everything is justifiable and the “bad guys” whose actions are always evil).
This is why so many Liberals ended up siding with American Fascists in their defense of an ethno-Fascist (i.e. Nazi-like) regime commiting ethnic Genocide - they too aways judged people based on their etnicity, differing only from one another in the list of “presumed good” and “presumed bad” ethnicities, and in this specific case both shared “Jews” in their list of “good ethnicity” (the Fascists because they saw them as Westerners - i.e. White - and the Liberals because they saw them as Victims following the Holocaust, a view heavilly propagandized by Zionists) and “Muslims” in the list of “bad ethnicity” (curiously both because they’re not White, and both via the cultural differences between them and “Westerners”, though Fascists and Liberals disliked different elements the culture of “Muslims” - I use quotes because whilst they see it as a single culture, it’s not, not even close).
-
To add on to what others have already said, Israel also supplies the US with a lot of advanced technology and biotechnology. All the cellbrite scanners used to hack into phones come from them, medical equipment like sleep study equipment, drugs, and other things.
Although it seems an area that would be good to just bring in house for national defense in the event a partner nation goes rogue.
We should never have given any of that responsibility to a non NATO country in the first place. We’ve been tied to this country by lobbyists.
Yeah, it always seemed like a lazy republicapitalist move. Why ever sell out so much security to a vague third party. They have smart people, mad respect to their engineers. No question. But national security being sold to a third party seems like nation-state safety 101.
It’s a sense of guilt about the Holocaust and a complete failure to realize that nations are as individuals. A victim can become a victimizer; an abused can become an abuser.
Quite easy really:
In the past they were a strategic counter against the islamic regimes aligned with the USSR & Today they are a strategic counter against Iran
Allowing Iran to destroy Israel and having them expand their influence in the region is considered worse
Also don’t we have large weapon caches there?
Numbers 2 and 3. Israel is lucrative, but not “Piss off numerous other customers” lucrative.
Epstein didn’t kill himself
I’m just screwing around but you want to talk about fear and power in Washington? Leverage? Who has them tapes?
It’s not nuts to say here a lot of politicians are implicated right? I wonder who’s gottem?
Not that any exuse needs to exist beyond the rampant corruption, cowardice, and lack of compassion we see daily on garish display
Geopolitics, i was curious so I looked it up. Seems like Israel is one of the only friendly countries in the middle east, which gives us access to oil in the region.
-
Israel does not give us access to ‘oil’.
-
The number of unfriendly countries in MENA is much smaller than the number of friendly countries. The Saudis, repulsively, are our close allies. Turkiye is literally part of NATO. Egypt has been with the US for the past 40 years. Jordan is one of our closest allies in the region. Iran and Syria are our only real enemies in the region.
-
I used to think that too, but the geopolitical reason was always “stability.” We’ve gone and spread our access to oil well enough that no one source should hinder our ability to get what we need.
I think their geopolitical reasons are just lies at this point.
Also, I’m pretty sure Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Jordan, and Egypt have all pretty much done everything the US wanted them to for years now
Thanks in part to the US military base in the region known as Israel perhaps?
Israel does not allow US military bases. Saudi Arabi, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait do though
I’m calling Israel a US military base.
That’s pretty spot on
Nope. Thanks to billions of US dollars.
It’s worse than that. The US is a net oil exporter. We make all the oil we need at home.
Look at a map of US bases in the region. None of them are in Israel. It is not a strategic country.
Israel is also the reason Israel is one of the only friendly countries in the Middle East
It’s not about oil, it’s the use of their military bases for staging and transit.
We have something like 15 bases in MENA. There’s absolutely no reason to transit through Israel and we do not do so. DOHA, Kuwait is the largest transit point for the US Military as a whole. Bahrain has the largest naval base and Saudi Arabia has the largest air force base.
Israel has an outpost that’s not used logistically at all, and could easily be put in Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, or Iraq. All allies, and some of them with actual US military bases.
I think it’s because humans tend towards being machines for making the world worse, as evidenced by the human world they’ve made for themselves.
A little of everything, I think. Plus I don’t think Biden has the mental capacity to competently evaluate what’s going on. The man is positively geriatric, and he’s no Jimmy Carter. But he’s useful, in the same way that Dianne Feinstein’s staff kept her as a puppet right up until her death. Frankly, it’s elder abuse.
I wouldn’t put this 100% on Biden though, even in the interview they state that Kamala is 100% on board with the same plan. There is something about the so-called American interest that demands we continue.
I’d put my money on money as that’s pretty much always the reason and the military industrial complex always gets what it wants. There’s never been an administration that saw a war it didn’t like until it goes far enough to risk the party’s reelection prospects. They’re being blind to the importance of this one this time.
War is the easiest way to facilitate the transfer of public funds into private hands.
The self-proclaimed anti-racists were never against racism, they just had different lists of ubermenschen and untermenschen that the traditional racists.
If one is running around with the idea that people’s worth is defined by their ethnicity and that one can presume they’re oppressors or oppressed based on that alone they’re still a racist and still operating on the same fundamental prejudices about the worth of people as the Nazis.
Because of how the Zionists in Israel worked so much and so successfully to entrenched the idea that Israel represents all Jews, an ethnic group which the new-age-racists collectively deemed “victims” and “good people” (remember, the racism is classifying people on their race, not being positive or negative in your classification: after all, the Nazis too deemed all Arians as better than the rest) what the Israeli Genocide did was put in focus the racism of the Racists passing themselves as anti-Racists when those who they believe represent one of the “good races” started openly doing the very same kind of ultra violent racism as the Nazis.
People who genuinely were against racism reviewed this stance whilst those who still operate on the same racist principles as the Nazis - that people’s worth is defined by their ethnicity - came up with all sorts of excuses in defense of “the good race”, very much like Nazi supporters defended the Arian race because it was a white race like theirs.
Basically Liberals made it plain as day they’re just another kind of Fascist who support all other kinds of Fascism unless they themselves are its target.
It’s not just one reason, it’s many reasons, all weighing together. That’s pretty standard for how govt decisions are made, an attempt is made to tally up and weigh all the pros and all the cons.
One reason seldom discussed is US reputation as standing by its allies after attacks. The US is allied to all of NATO, almost all of S America in the Rio Convention, along with a slew of other, individual alliances like Israel and Morocco. The idea that if you’re an ally and you are attacked, we will help you, is an important one in preserving our network of global allies. We have seldom historically made distinctions that you have to be on the right side of history.
Coupled with domestic factionalist opinions, AIPAC money, MIC money, hamas and Hezbollah themselves being oppressive, genocidal movements, etc etc, balanced against Israel throwing out the two-state solution post Oslo Accords in favor of illegal settlement, Apartheid and now openly advocating for an ethnic cleansing, and there’s a lot of weight on the scale pulling each way. Really heavy fucking scale, one of the heaviest in the world, and with a century+ of backstory that is far from one-sided.
Big, big mess basically. Historically epic clusterfuck. Biblical proportions, even.
Hamas and Hezbollah are anti-colonialst resistance movements, not genocidal ones. They exist due to Israel’s ethnic cleansing of local populations.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
During the current war, Hamas officials have said that the group does not want to return to ruling Gaza and that it advocates for forming a government of technocrats to be agreed upon by the various Palestinian factions. That government would then prepare for elections in Gaza and the West Bank, with the intention of forming a unified government.
Yes, I’ve heard that rhetoric before. I apply the same skepticism to hamas as I do Israel, though, given both are engaged in outright warfare. Political maneuverings are to be expected during times of war. I am not surprised they would offer a prisoner swap, the only surprise is that they would think any chance exists that Netanyahu might actually agree, after given such a clear casus belli and opportunity to enact his long-term goals.
Ultimately, language like this is legitimate cause for suspicion, though: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/
Additionally, you can point to the indiscriminate attacks on Oct 7th against nonmilitary targets to give evidence to their lack of distinguishment between Israeli people and the Israeli military. It’s not just language about the destruction of a country of people, they exhibit actions to back it up.
Ultimately, it does not matter why they want to destroy Israelis, that is not a pre-requisite to fighting against occupation. Do Ukrainians seek to destroy Russia? Or merely battle its military to liberate their land? This is a key distinction, the following of the laws of war.
Hamas certainly did commit war crimes on Oct 7, and many of the attacks were indiscriminate.
This kind of violence does not come out of nowhere, Israel has committed this level of violence on the population of Gaza multiple times, on top of the daily violence of the blockade and occupation. The occupier does set the level of violence in Colonialist conflicts. It’s still unjustifiable for both sides, but the material conditions the occupier subjects the occupied to are critical to understand.
When people are subjected to the daily violence of Apartheid for generations, they will inevitably use violence to fight back. The underlying cause of all this violence stems from Zionism (Ethnic Cleansing, Settler Colonialism, Apartheid), and the only way to end the violence to to end the underlying cause.
Quotes
Historian and professor of genocide studies Uğur Ümit Üngör noted that “many commentators rightly pointed out that Hamas committed a genocidal massacre”, while also highlighting the killing of Arab Israelis and Bedouins during Hamas’ attack as evidence that it may not have been “group selective”. He suggested that the attack might fall under the category of “subaltern genocide”, drawing comparisons to the mass killing of pied-noirs in Algeria. Political scientist Abdelwahab El-Affendi refuted the “subaltern genocide” thesis, pointing to a “near-consensus” in the field of genocide studies that “genocides are almost invariably perpetrated by states”, which does not apply to the Gazan enclave. He stated that the attacks were consistent with terrorism and mass violence, but that the taking of hostages for prisoner exchanges indicated that the intent of the attacks was not genocidal.
By contrast, British academic Omar McDoom wrote in the Journal of Genocide Research that comparisons between the Holocaust and 7 October are indicative of a pro-Israel bias in sections of the Holocaust studies community. McDoom argues that the comparison is “problematic” because “the Germans were not an occupied and oppressed people. And Gaza is not a powerful, expansionary state. To the contrary.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_7_October_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
Infographics
Your underlying causes do not go very far back in time. The first Zionist settlers purchased their land from Palestinians and lived peacefully alongside them. While I understand your desire to focus solely on material causes, one must also take ideology and religion into account as factors. Humans experience emotions, and emotions do not always have material causes.
Early Zionist settlers who did live side by side with the native Palestinian people did report that they were received peacefully, that is true. But the land purchases were not, that began the forced displacement.
The Transfer Committee, and the JNF Ethnic Cleansing, which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The 1940s are still half a century after the first settlers arrived. Purchasing land from Palestinians is not forcibly displacing them.
You’re starting your history at around the time Israel was founded, and the Jewish community had grown powerful. That is not the beginning, the beginning was 50 years earlier. Doing this is very common in propaganda.
Additionally, you can point to the indiscriminate attacks on Oct 7th against nonmilitary targets to give evidence to their lack of distinguishment between Israeli people and the Israeli military.
The crucial fact that is always left out of this - by the Israeli military’s own admission, using their own numbers, the IDF and Hamas have the same collateral damage ratio. Hamas killed 2 civilians for every military member they killed on October 7th. This is the same civilian to military kill ratio that the IDF claims in their own numbers. Hamas is literally just as effective at avoiding civilian casualties as the IDF is.
Just like somebody giving weapons and ammo to the Ku Klux Klan whilst they’re actively using them to kill afro-americans is a fucking extreme racist KKK supporter, so is anybody giving weapons and ammo to a white ethno-Fascist state actively genociding people of another ethnicity because of their ethnicity is a fucking extreme racist ethno-Fascist (the same variant of Fascism as Nazism) supporter.
Unless you’re a fucking racist yourself who judges actions differently depending on the ethnicity of the victims or the perpetrators, those two are equivalent.
So any self-proclaimed anti-Racist liberal supporting Israel with actual weapons and ammo is not only by their own actions the worst, most raciste violent and genocidal kind of Fascist there is - one similar to Nazism, no less - they’re also a massive hypocrite.
So yeah, based on the leaders they vote for Americans are by association the modern Nazi supporters.
deleted by creator
this is one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever read.
you think that the US is under Israel’s thumb?
you fundamentally misunderstand international power dynamics.
“All that the Biden Administration had to do was cease giving weapon!”
this would do nothing. Israel is supported by dozens of countries and has a huge stockpile from having been supported financially and materially for half a century.
The US can influence Netanyahu and Israel, but this is a crime that has been perpetuated for 50 years that is still going on, recently ramped up to a concluding chapter, and the US does not control the idf or Netanyahu.
that is a separate nation with ample resources that is making this decision to continue the genocide.
and no, the Biden administration hasn’t moved “backward” with regard to israeli support, from full support they moved to warnings, after warnings they moved to sanctions, then Biden publicly stated that the US won’t continue to support Netanyahu in an indefinite war and met with his political adversary, now they’re threatening to cut weapon shipments if Israel continues bombing civilians and they’re calling for ceasefires.
they’re moving way too slowly, but they aren’t moving backwards.
they’re moving way too slowly, but they aren’t moving backwards
Name one single action they’re taken other than ask Israel nicely. You said sanctions but they never actually sanctioned anyone. And the threat you’re referring to was specifically stated to not be meant as a threat.
"Name one single action they’re taken…’
“never actually sanctioned anyone.”
action:
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-administration-sued-over-sanctions-israeli-settlers-2024-08-07/
The Biden administration is getting sued over all of their sanctions,
Just Google the things I write, you will find sources for them.
action:
publicly declared that the US won’t support an indefinite war.
action: met with netanyahu’s political ally after Netanyahu refused to de-escalate
action: cut down the weapons shipments they already agreed to send.
action: Biden is actively calling for a two-state solution
action: Biden has called for a halt to Israeli colonization of Palestinian land(that’s why those sanctions you didn’t r know about happened).
you may not value diplomatic actions, but diplomacy is important, and is what the US is going to try first with one of their oldest active mutual defense allies in the world.
The naive belief that US presidents have a switch in their office that lets them turn the actions of other countries on and off is inaccurate in the extreme.
there are dozens of countries financially and materally supporting Israel.
If the US stops supporting Israel, they
-
lose one of their most valuable allies in a part of the world very hostile toward the US.
-
have zero impact on the capability of Israel to continue waging the genocide. Israel has enough weapons and support to continue this as long as they want to.
-
push Netanyahu even further away; Netanyahu is under no obligation, as the leader of a sovereign nation, to follow the dictates of other countries.
should the US do more?
yes.
are they doing anything?
Yes, they are repeatedly trying various diplomatic and material actions and censures with which to deescalate the concluding chapter of an invasion that nearly the entire world has supported for 50 years that finally you are aware of and justifiably angry about while maintaining an ally that is crucial to US interests and national security.
The measures taken by the US against Israel are ramping up, and have consistently been ramping up for a year.
too slowly for many people’s taste, especially if they don’t understand how international diplomacy functions, but the spectators’ political blind spot doesn’t mean nothing is happening on the world stage.
Your list is all "says and “meets”. There’s no single “does” in this whole list, except the (pitiful) sanctions that I admittedly thought were taken down in the planning stage. Anyway, if it was as you said stats department employees wouldn’t be resigning left and right. The Biden administration wouldn’t be criticized by experts on the middle east everywhere. Your implication that the people angry at the Biden administration are ignorant laymen who don’t know better is a patently false appeal to authority. Suffice it to say that if the Biden administration wanted Israel to stop, they’d have stopped by now. Israel literally cannot exist in its current state without the United States. They do not have the economy necessary to commit two genocides at once while holding down a population of oppressed natives, and all naturalization agreements with their neigibors were quid pro quos with the United States that Israel on their own can’t sustain, let alone expand. Israel would be eaten alive by their neigibors without US support and they know it.
The naive belief that US presidents have a switch in their office that lets them turn the actions of other countries on and off is inaccurate in the extreme.
Multiple US presidents, the most famous of which is Reagan, did it. And it took a whole lot less than a year.
-
Removed by mod
What a compelling rebuttal of their points /s
“an armchair know-it-all here”
…is that it?
thanks!
I don’t know it all, but I agree that my analysis of the situation was succinct and accurate.
