- cross-posted to:
- games@lemmy.world
- games@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- games@lemmy.world
- games@sh.itjust.works
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Now we can not buy their games on Steam, too! 😃
I was hoping to see this comment!
It’s funny because if Bethesda, EA, Ubisoft and Epic joined forces to make one platform they could put a dent in the steam monopoly.
But since they’re bunch of shittiy toxic managers with mentality of screwing everyone around for their own benefit, it’s never going to happen. They will always fail and crawl back to Gabe
For a short period, yes probably. But Bethesda is a failing studio and so is Ubisoft. EA has popular sports games but I’d guess that’s a very small portion of PC sales considering those games do poorly on the platform compared to consoles. Epic does have loads of money but not enough to float the other companies.
In my view, Microsoft and their GamePass stuff is the only real competitor that will ever take a small dent out of steams sales, mostly because of the Call of Duty titles being on there now. But in order to take 0.05% or whatever of their sales they had to: own the OS for almost every computer running steam, buy dozens of game studios, compete (and lose) in the physical console market over decades, and they had to buy not one but two of the largest studios out there. To the point where they own a significant portion of the iOS App Store that is orders of magnitude more money than PC games and still they cannot compete with steam on their own operating system.
If that doesn’t spell out how unstoppable Steam is, I don’t know what will. The thing that might actually hurt Steam is if those publishers were all GamePass exclusives. Even then, Steam would be just fine I think. Crazy.
Steam is untouchable until Gaben dies. Then God help us all.
I hope he’ll turn Steam into non-profit before he dies…
Non profits can still be super corrupt, especially in the US as they don’t have to disclose any money flow so a huge percent of the time it goes to the board of directors.
See: Susan B kohlman
His plan is to rise after the third day
And on that third day, he releases all the 3 games that they’ve been withholding. He will be risen, Gaben.
Trust in Lord Gaben
The only thing to hurt steam will be Gabe dying
I’m more optimistic about that. I don’t see why the storefront or their general philosophy would change. At least not quickly. What might change is how they treat their IP. Ask yourself if you’d be okay with another half life game being just a 7/10 game. Because I think that’s what would happen.
A 7/10 game would be better then no game. Besides sequels don’t erase the original.
That’s kind of why I said ask yourself. Because I think some of their titles Id rather see live on at a 7/10 level but others I don’t think need it. Like I could handle a TF3 at that level or maybe even a portal game. But half life would kind of hurt to see it not be a 10/10 maximum effort game. I wish they’d finish the story while Gabe is still at the company.
Steam does good by the customer. No one else does. Only when they are customer first will they make a dent in Steam sales.
Homie, motherfucking Microsoft couldn’t put a dent in STEAM.
Please Microsoft couldn’t even maintain Skype dominance after they bought it.
To be fair they bought skype to break it’s end to end encryption at the behest of the us govt. In return they were awarded big contracts.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data
True, they ended P2P networking and proper encryption. It was pretty obvious in the context of Prysm scandal
And they killed MSN for it.
Its literally the prisoners dilemma but they’re too greedy to look at it factually 😭
Explanation for those that don’t know https://youtu.be/TJCGTNIwmv8?si=lRAX3BPpKO2j_SOX
You left your SI in the link
BethesdaMicrosoft, EA, Ubisoft and Epic
Epic enshittified early. The whole system was terrible and they force it onto you. Here is valve actively making it easier to play your games while epic was like “It’s PC gaming, you get the good with the bad, suck it!”. You can’t simply buy your competition when your competition has more money than God.
Epic is failing because Tim Sweeney refused to innovate the platform.
Fuck Tim Sweeney with a linux powered dildo.
He is the reason linux gaming is being held back.
Pornhub video title would be: "Getting all my weak spots penetrated at once by software using ‘unsafe custom kernels’ "
Even Microsoft doesn’t seem to be actively preventing their games from running on Linux. Fuck Sweeney.
I played Forza Horizon 4 and 5 on Linux with no issues. But I give the laurels to Steam and Proton.
Oh, yeah, Valve and Proton are to thank. I’m just saying Microsoft’s not blocking Proton like Epic and a few others seem to be. I can appreciate the stance of “We won’t help you, but we won’t stop you either. Good luck” that I think MS is taking with this.
average Lemmy conversion lol
Honestly, Linux is the reason Linux gaming is held back.
I’m running Linux for my couch based gaming and the experience is awesome. Much better than Windows ever was.
What makes you think that Linux is holding Linux back? The UI can be completely customised which makes Steam OS wonderful to use while Microsoft completely ban any customised interface out of the box.
Windows is only popular through inertia.
The reliance on the terminal holds Linux back.
The second there’s a problem all the guides on how to get stuff configured or fix a problem start with… open Terminal. At that point your average user is asking for Windows.
I say this as someone with over twenty years of experience with Linux. Users hate command line interfaces.
I haven’t been required to use the terminal for anything in years.
Honestly. I’ve been using Linux as my daily driver since the mid-2000’s (Warty Warthog?), and the only times the terminal gets opened these days is through pure choice. Maybe 10 years ago I would agree with you.
As a recent Linux user, I can say that he’s got a point, but he’s making the wrong point. What I’ve learned is that technically, you don’t have to use terminal. But as a new user, you’re never made aware that there are non-terminals options. Every time you try installing a program or really doing anything, the first response on any article or forum is generally going to be to open up terminal and start typing. Linux is in a weird spot because the are so many desktop environments that the only way to make a tutorial that works on all distributions is to tell the user to use terminal. Yet by doing so, you are pushing away new users who will begin to think that Linux is too technical for normal use.
I see many experienced users dismiss new users’ concerns because “you don’t actually need terminal,” but I don’t think these people really understand that while that’s technically true, the new user experience has been constant tutorials and articles that basically state the exact opposite. I’m not sure what a good solution would be, but I do think that experienced users need to acknowledge that just because new users identify an incorrect problem, doesn’t mean that there isn’t a problem at all
So the problem is crappy guides?
I was of the opinion that anything that suggested the terminal was purely for speed reasons.
Average Windows guide. Click here, dismiss the warning, click here, click here, close the advert, click next, type in 1, accept, reboot.
Average Linux guide, go to Gnome Tweaks, third option, type in 1, no reboot required. Or open a terminal and paste the following command.
It’s precise, it’s concise, and it’s fast but it’s not required.
the are so many desktop environments
I completely disagree. There is Gnome with 70% of the market, KDE with 30%, and then various hacked together desktops with <1%. Guides should be set up for Gnome because you stick with defaults if you are that scared, maybe a reference for KDE, and if you chose something else then your already in copy/paste commands territory.
There was no part of me setting up SteamOS on my couch PC that required a terminal, which is what we are talking about here.
Have you ever had to fix anything on Linux? Even asking for help on any forum gets you the response “paste this in your terminal and give us the result”.
In trying to switch to Linux but all the fucking around to make some games work gets tiring sometimes, enough that I don’t think I’ll ever switch completely because sometimes it’s nice to just install and play.
Maybe you’re going for more esoteric titles, or maybe some with invasive anti-cheat software, but just to add another, opposing point, I haven’t had much trouble since switching to Kubuntu.
How many times did you open terminal up to get a game working?
If it’s more than zero then it isn’t user friendly or accessible.
Zero.
Steam doesn’t require any terminal opening, the hard part are shitty Windows games that pop up boxes to install extra stuff because for some reason they can’t install it when you install the game.
Zero. Everything is done though Steam.
I said not much trouble, not no trouble, but that being said, zero times. Issues I’ve encountered have not been related to getting a game running.
I mainly play indie titles, but actually zero times so far. Steam really does everything for you nowadays
That picture of Gaben badly needs the addition of someone feeding him grapes
I’m not busy…
get in line.
Line forms behind me!
Someone add the stylized female version of Engineer feeding him grapes
The Engineer has 12 PhDs, he’d develop a Dispensah to feed grapes.
Now the Soldier, on the other hand…
He’s going to evolve into hedonism bot from Futurama.
Ubisoft could put their games for free right into my PC’s games folder and I still wouldn’t play them. They’re shit.
Once you’ve played one Ubisoft game you’ve played them all. They did that thing where they took the best gameplay loops from each of their games and implemented them in their other games. So you always feel like you’ve done it before.
Their stories dance around the idea of saying something meaningful without actually taking a stance on anything. They feel like they’ve been approved by a board of directors and not the vision of an artist.
Absolutely soulless.
Spot on, I feel exactly the same about their games.
I used my money to put one of their games in my library and when I noticed (after the refund window) that it was an Ubisoft game, I decided to play something else.
I don’t subscribe to the sunk cost fallacy.
Man, I don’t like the Steam monopoly on principle, but I have to admit I do struggle to pay attention to Epic exclusives. It’s simply the launcher I open the least after GOG and Steam. I’ve though “hey, wasn’t that Ubi Star Wars thing out” like two or three times and forgot about it between remembering that’s an Epic thing and deciding whether I wanted to buy it.
But hey, since we’re going multiplat again, I could use some newer Ubi games on GOG, too.
Valve is just one shite CEO away from going from PC’s blessing to its curse.
I choose to believe that Gabe’s will bequeaths Steam to a cohort of independent non-profits and co-ops which will each be charged with attempting to continue to elevate gamers and gaming according to Gabe’s 1,200 page manifesto.
GabeN will name twelve disciples who will spread His word and continue His work.
sixteen (0-F), but yes.
They’ll strap him to a chair and sacrifice 1000 2fort snipers a day to keep him alive.
At twelve disciples, that means he can give each pair one of his mega yatchs. I’m sure with a third of all gaming profit coming their way, the twelve of them will be able to afford the 100 million per year it costs to maintain the fleet worth around 1 billion.
He’s not Jesus, he is just a piece of shit billionaire like the rest.
It is genuinely pretty obscene. You can’t “offset” this kind of behaviour.
Whoa, you should preface your posts with a warning, lest anyone cut themselves on all that edge.
If you think about the fact that he’s taking enough profit from every sales to pay his employees more than the industry average and to be a multi billionaire while his clients can barely afford a house or can’t afford one at all then the current CEO is already shit…
Fuck all billionaires.
Wow that’s deep!
Title of your sex movie.
It’s a good monopoly, for now and hopefully for a long time.
The fact that Valve went out of their way to make gaming better in Linux, says a lot imho.
I like Valve, but I will point out what’s been said before - Valve has a stake in making Linux gaming better, since it enables the Steam Deck to exist and prosper. They could’ve chosen other options that don’t help the community, but they didn’t choose this entirely selflessly, since they reap the benefits from not just their own work, but also that of the open source developers.
I don’t doubt that, but Steam was available for Linux, a long time before the Steam Deck and even SteamOS, as far as I remember.
The steam deck wasn’t even a sketch on paper when Valve started pushing Linux. It’s been their route forward into all forms of hardware. I’m sure it’s not long before we get a stand alone VR headset that runs Linux, which seems to me to be the real goal. The Deck was just a step along the way.
I hope you’ve read the news that two Volvo devs are speeding up the Wayland development. :)
The only good monopoly is one where the profits goes back to the population or the customers.
It’s a private company, so you could argue that the profits go towards the employees and the customers in the form of improvements. Not shareholders.
One employee is a multi billionaire, so no, it’s not a cooperative where the profit is split fairly between employees or redistributed to the customers/members.
You mean the owner?
Now, now. What would Marx say about that?
Well, that and the several billion dollars in Gaben’s bank account.
Private companies are still corporations, guys.
It says (pretty explicitly, if you go back and read interviews), that Gabe Newell really doesn’t like Microsoft in general, that the feeling is mutual and that the fact that his multibillion dollar empire is stuck as a Windows application MS may try to muscle out at any point has motivated him to bring PC gaming out of Windows from very early on.
Granted, MS has been sucking at attempting exactly that for a long time, but that’s the ultimate motivation here. That’s not a particularly disputed fact.
There is no such thing as a good monopoly. He leverages a 30% tax on a huge chunk of the gaming industry. Steam, Microsoft, Epic, Sony and Nintendo all essentially participate in collusion and anti competitive behavior.
Think of all the indie studios that closed and sequels that got canceled and ask yourself if they could have made it if steam only took 5%.
They leveraged linux to save on development and maintenance costs. Capturing the handheld market at a tenth of the price while making the same profit isn’t altruisme.
It’s not like the value added for that 30% tax isn’t there. Steam has made so many things so easy that it’s easy to forget what things were like decades ago.
If you were an independent game publisher, you had to figure out how to set up a web storefront, a content delivery network hosted in perpetuity, take payments, do multiplayer, add in-game chat, map every weird joystick and gamepad in the universe to your control scheme, achievements, friend lists… And every game developer had to do that independently because there was no public solution, really. The friction to enter the indie dev space was so much higher.
Also, steam does not force you to use their store- you can generate steam keys and sell your game away from the steam platform. The only thing that they enforce is if you sell it for a lower price elsewhere, they’ll de-list your game. Which I think is reasonable.
You can use the same argument about Musk or Benzos as well. Clearly, they are over charging for the value or they wouldn’t be billionaires.
Steam could give the same value on 2% taken and Gaben would probably still be able to afford at least one of his 6 mega yatchs. But there’s indie companies that are struggling where just an extra 10% would go a long way.
In the end, Gaben and his friends greed is killing indie companies, affecting the quality and amount of games we get and is having a detrimental effect on the industry.
Yet because Gaben has a really good pr team and managed to convince everyone he’s “not your average billionaire”, we now have comments comparing him to Jesus and applauding his monopoly as being the only good one. Fucking hell.
Only if the game is purchased directly on Steam. A developer can sell Steam keys on their own website and not have Valve take a cut of the price. I think the only rule is that you can’t sell the key cheaper than the price the developer has set on the Steam store.
It’s just a way to bring in and trap people in their ecosystem. It’s free like Gmail is free, not out of altruism. The bad seriously outweigh the good when it comes to steam, we shouldn’t praise them.
It’s tough for any public companies to compete because they keep setting off their own footguns, ensuring they don’t succeed in the space. As long as Gabe is around I’m okay with this one (1) monopoly, as a treat.
The weirdest thing is that steam doesn’t have a natural or self reinforcing monopoly. It wouldn’t take much for another company to copy their business model, and provide a competitor. In practice, however, they all fall flat on their faces.
Steam’s model is to give up short term gain for a smaller long term gain. Over time, this has snowballed into what we see now. Gabe is happy to get ever richer from his golden goose laying away. The competitors get started, then try and gut the goose for a quick buck.
It kind of does.
You get user lock-in as users buy more games, making it so Steam is always a store to buy from. You can’t deplatform from Steam. At that point, you can’t replace Steam with another DRM platform to pay existing games. That creates a large customer base which becomes a must add for vending new games.
It isn’t a hard monopoly, but it helps create a soft monopoly.
Compounding interest is the most powerful force in the universe
Much like the nuclear forces, it only works within a certain range. Not enough principle and the economy collapses before you can snowball. Too much and the economy collapses because you snowball.
I don’t think this tracks. Steam’s model is developing software to automate or crowdsource expensive effort. Now, anyways. It originally was to fix PC piracy, but they achieved that ages ago.
And hell yeah they have a natural self-reinforcing monopoly. Even ignoring the mass of captive users with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars committed to the platform, Valve has been doing feature work on that storefront for decades. When others try to compete people immediately bring up the expansive value added features. They make their own controller drivers. They make their own compatibility layers. They make their own OS, FFS. In what world bringing a PC storefront to that level would “not take much”? It’s an Apple-style ecosystem model, and much as it terrifies me that it’s an ever growing monopoly, it’s still impresive that they managed to build it within Microsoft’s own.
That would be true only if a company recreating the same product and improving on it would actually have a chance to compete, which isn’t the case. People refuse to have multiple launchers out of principle, having all your games in one place makes it so you don’t want to split your library so you keep buying from the same store (sometimes people even brag about paying more just to have a game on Steam instead of an alternative).
The only way to break that monopoly would be for a competitor to come and offer to recognize purchases made on Steam for games they offer on their own platform and to start with, at the minimum, everything that Steam offers and I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that’s completely unrealistic.
I’m on the same page as you, it’s tough. I have no idea how any other platform can really achieve competitor status with steam, and this is a big problem for us consumers and for developers.
All Epic had to do was build a good store front with similar features as Steam provides. They didn’t. Their store sucked from the beginning and it also blows now. Relying purely on exclusives and freebies was a losing game - they needed to back it up by making the service worthwhile beyond that, and they utterly failed to do so.
Assuming that a company could hope to achieve a store front with similar features in a few years instead of the 21 that steam had, why would anyone migrate there?
A. The technological landscape is very different today than it was 21 years ago. Many other companies have launched a better copy of Steam - including Ubisoft themselves. People didn’t like when Ubisoft and EA did it because they tried forced exclusivity, like Epic, and couldn’t offer anything beyond their own games. And you couldn’t even sync friends between the 3, needlessly splitting your friends between different platforms. GoG has been doing fine for years now.
B. Maybe if Epic had provided basic stuff like a shopping cart - you know, a basic feature that you can find on any webhost service’s website maker - instead of paying companies for forced exclusivity, maybe people would’ve been more willing to give it a chance.
Forced exclusivity put them on a bad start. The lack of basic features that were standardized for online storefronts 25 years ago killed any chance they had to gain any kind of traction. And the series of bad decisions following guaranteed that they never would have a good reputation. Remember when they had a sale on unreleased games without asking the devs of those games?
I agree that forced exclusivity is bad. I absolutely disagree with your statement that ubisoft store was better than steam, I don’t even understand how you can say something like that. But yes, without the games any store is worthless.
You didn’t respond to my question though, so I’ll repeat it: even if someone was able to launch a product with feature parity to steam, why would anyone migrate?
I didn’t mean that Ubisoft’s was better than Steam - just better than Epic’s store when comparing both against Steam. I hated the uPlay store as much as everyone else.
As for your question, once you have feature parity, it becomes about finding a niche. GoG has its list of old games and lack DRM going for it, for example. Nobody is going to pull large groups of people from Steam immediately without some major draw, obviously, but if you offer a similar service that doesn’t exclude people on other platforms like Steam from playing games with people on your own platform, then people will be drawn to whichever they like better.
The big reason I think we don’t see any real competition for Steam is that the companies with the funding to do so all wanted to force a piece of the pie rather than actually compete with Steam on quality of service. If EA, Ubisoft, and Epic had tried that, we would probably have a much more diverse ecosystem of storefronts - especially with crossplay becoming common. As it stands, Steam’s biggest competitors are the consoles, and that’s largely down to hardware preference rather than storefront/launcher preference.
Steam has so much impetus now that competing with them is very difficult, but as I saw somebody else in here say, if Epic had done something like offer their lower take from devs on sales at the agreement of a 5% lower price on their platform instead of spending all that money on forced exclusivity, people would have a real reason to go there instead of Steam (if the quality of service were comparable).
“Forced exclusivity is bad” is an angle that has always baffled me a little, because some of its proponents seem to also be going “what exclusives does the Xbox have” like two posts down the road.
Or maybe it’s because I’m old enough to remember where the “I will never buy anything on Epic because they pay for exclusives” was instead “Square has betrayed its customers by moving to the PlayStation” (or, you know, Konami for having Xbox ports).
Gaming opinions are weird, and get weirder if you track them over time.
That wasn’t the question, the question was “Given they’re provided the same set of features, why would anyone migrate?”
I suppose those exclusives and freebies were the reason. I think they needed to do all the things and blew the opportunity. If it was a company with shit for funding I might have more pity but Epic definitely had the budget to do more.
I have no idea how any other platform can really achieve competitor status with steam
Aside from all the (other) obvious options replicating Steam, theres always the tried and true option of offering lower prices. To my knowledge, no one has been willing to try that yet.
Lower prices was a promise by Epic. We take a smaller cut from the devs so the savings can be passed down to the customers.
Didnt happen, buying on Epic is just getting a worse experience and giving the devs more money for it.
Lower distribution costs (in exchange for less marketing and a worse product) are not lower prices though. If Epic had spent half the time and money they spent negotiating for exclusives on negotiating for lower prices, Im sure they easily could have. For example, Epic advertises a 12% fee on sales, but if they instead took 10% (maybe spent less on exclusives to account for this) and then required prices be 5% lower than MSRP on other stores, then suddenly its a lot more appealing to customers - the ones actually providing the money - while still offering a much better deal than Steam. Similarly, Epic could have just passed on the saving more directly, like I said, with a rewards program or similar. Epic had plenty of ways to actually lower prices for their customer rather than just their buisiness partners. They just chose not to.
Frankly, Epic is pretty irrelevant to this point considering how significantly they chose to burn the bridges with their customers right from the get-go anyway. Unless you’re studying how to lose consumer trust or goodwill, they’re not really a good reference.
and then required prices be 5% lower than MSRP on other stores
That’s something that Steam doesn’t allow, which means the only way to have lower prices is for Epic to pay for an exclusivity deal. Because who’s going to move to Epic if the only way is to lose out on Steam?
From my understanding, thats only for selling Steam Keys. As long as you’re not using Steam’s infrastructure, you’re fine. You often can find better prices off Steam as it is, on platforns like Epic, GOG or esspecially Itch.io.
That’s on publishers though, if Epic gets a smaller cut and the price is the same, the money is going somewhere.
I think part of the Steam contract for publishers is that they can’t sell their games cheaper elsewhere. So anyone wanting to compete with Steam on price needs to sell games that are in demand but not already on Steam. And Epic is really the only company with the pull to get that to happen, but the only way for them to do it is to get exclusivity, which gamers hate.
From my understanding, thats only for selling Steam Keys. As long as you’re not using Steam’s infrastructure, you’re fine. You often can find better prices off Steam as it is, on platforns like Epic, GOG or esspecially Itch.io.
I thought it was the opposite, that they can’t sell lower on other marketplaces, but they can do what they want with their keys.
Information is limitted as the contracts used for developers aren’t shared, but the general understanding is that this only applies to Steam keys.
The one exception is the wolfire games lawsuit, which includes one alleged instance of Valve asking a developer not to distribute the game for free on their Discord when it is a paid product on Steam. Given the lack of detail, the single anecdote for evidence, the existence of other games where they are priced lower or free off Steam (I.E. Dwarf Fortress), its certainly not a widespread problem, almost certainly not in contract, if it did happen exactly as the anecdote suggests, may have been a misstep on the part of one employee, and may not have happened at all.
Of course, if Valve does do this, nonetheless mandated it, its an issue, but given that no one else has challenged them on what would be such a blatent anti-trust case, esspecially given how everyone else in the industry has been trying to take Valve’s place for years, I think its unlikely.
I was gonna comment about epic giving games away for free, but I think I got your point. You mean like the same releases, but subsidizing, say, 10% of the price?
Yep, although there are a ton of other ways to do it as well such as a good rewards points system, or a raffle system with bonus games won when purchasing, or similar. As long as you don’t spend years antagonising your customers first, I don’t expect game stores would struggle to compete offering better prices than Steam, even at the cost of features.
Yeah, if it isn’t it will be. If you extrapolate their current moves to a world where PC gaming is entirely controlled by them, maybe even from the OS level downwards, and there is also a set of console-like standalone platforms on handheld, set-top and VR segments… well, that’s a level of control over a massive media industry that I don’t think anybody has had before. Especially not a private company whose ownership is two cheeseburgers and/or an unfortunate knife sharpening accident away from changing overnight.
As long as they stick with Linux as their target platform for the future, then I think the hardware side of this is safe. The problem is if their storefront goes to shit. People have pretty much their entire hobby reliant on one company on a platform that’s supposedly meant to have open competition as a benefit.
That’s half the reason I don’t buy Ubisoft games. The other half is their launcher and DRM system.
Why is it always this one photo of Gabe? It’s like a meme format that journalists use unironically any time Steam comes up.
Especially because IIRC he lost a bunch of weight since and looks better
I think because (health aside), it projects huge IDGAF energy… which goes well with the stories.
Maybe these corporate parasites that ruin the industry could learn the lesson that it is a lot more profitable to not be a piece of shit. And treat people with respect.
That’s a good point-- I’m on board with that.
Oh man, that picture of Gabe just keeps getting better.
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Hope they also disable their shitshow of a launcher.
Don’t expect too much from the inventor of always-online DRM in single player games.
And inventor of predatory monetization. . . I mean “convenience purchases” in singleplayer games.
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for the love of god and gaming, please don’t buy ubisoft games
Don’t buy any game forced onto epic gamestore.
Ubisoft left steam? Didn’t even know it, their games have gotten terrible reviews for so long, and their uplay platform is so shitty, I have skipped them until they fixed their game dev or cancelled uplay, haha.
If you’re into Metroidvanias “Prince of Persia: Lost Crown” was actually a real surprise hit. I think it’s the first Ubisoft game I’ve played in years.
Didnt even know they left. Not bothered with any of their games in so long.
