I hear all this talk about women’s safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a rise in male loneliness and the expectation to be the one to take an active role in interaction especially those that are romantic in nature. How are we supposed to take the lead and approach while keeping women safe at the same time when approaching her could make her feel uncomfortable, even in safe environments such as social groups, bars & clubs, workplaces, etc?
I found a couple of videos which explains why men are out here street harassing women. The link to this video there’s a section called “bottom line”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZiaTDxJ-rQ
The guy here basically goes on to explain that a woman is not gonna make a move on him, that he needs to show her he’s the man and have a wolf mentality. Obviously, the way he worded this is just wrong but this is the mentality I see from men who are trying to be the take charge types. I don’t think this kind of thinking comes from nowhere. Men already deal with the expectation to approach and make the first move. If you put that much pressure on men, it’s gonna make them wanna find communities that will tell them how to do exactly that. Guess where they turn to? The redpill/PUA. These are the communities that teach them the alpha-beta nonsense, how they got ideas that “a woman loves a confident masculine man, show her that by letting her feel your strong presence” and they learn messed up tips and tactics to do exactly that, which then leads to men making women feel uncomfortable.
For anyone that watches the 12 hour video of a woman walking down the street, within those hours, a lot of men came out to talk to her. I don’t think these men would be doing that if they didn’t face any expectations to be the pursuers in courtship. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A&ab_channel=RobBliss
Over 90% of women don’t initiate interactions with men first & often expect them to do it, and I think this is a huge problem that’s contributing to both men & women’s issues. Safety is a big issue for women on the daily and I think male expectations in dating are a big factor for that. The expectations for men to do something first will make women not take an active role, resulting in most men feeling undesired (& also lonely tho male loneliness is a multi-faceted issue), and when they decide to do something about it, they turn to communities that will teach them strategies beyond the mainstream to give them that success, which then turns into having a lot of men out there street harassing women. It doesn’t just have to be street harassment. This can also happen in social groups, friend groups, bars and harassment can very much happen there.
So the first step here is for society to stop expecting men to make the first move and not just that. Stop expecting them to read signs (especially signs women gives as an invitation as her “first move” as they’re subtle, not obvious), stop expecting men to start flirting, and stop expecting men to be the first ones to initiate conversations about sex. We should start telling women to be more active (and obviously active) and do some of these things to take the pressure off of men.
This doesn’t mean that dating should completely fall into the woman’s hands. What I am saying ultimately is to not have expectations of any gender to bear the heavy burden of doing everything. Once we get rid of those expectations, then we can start implementing some gender neutral courtship rules that allows men and women to take active agency without much pressure. But I don’t believe we as a society (given our current practices) should partake in active agency with dating until we’ve gotten rid of those expectations.
Taking the expectations off isn’t going to stop SOME men from being psychos, there’s always going to be bad apples in society that makes things uncomfortable for everybody. But I don’t believe women are getting approached only by these types. Chances are, they’re getting approached by men who are dealing with societal expectations of being a man (this doesn’t mean u should entertain him. If he makes you feel unsafe just do what u have to do to gtfo there. Just cuz men have the expectation doesn’t mean u throw away your need to feel safe. If no man is allowed to approach on the streets, then any man, even if he is decent and friendly in their approach, should be doing that as that is street harassment and would make you feel uncomfortable.). How is it that the average man can go a day without having a woman or another man bother him, but women can’t go a whole day without having any man try his shot with her? This all goes back to the expectations we have of men.
We should not be doing any active courting in dating nor give out any dating advice until we have reached a point where society doesn’t expect men to be the initiators all the time. That means adults telling boys that they don’t need to take up that role and that it’s okay for women to make the first move. That means women telling their female friends to not expect guys to make the first move and do the heavy lifting, especially in the beginning stages.
We have already been told not to assume that a woman wants us to approach just because she’s dressed a certain way. We have already been told that we shouldn’t be out here bothering anyone on the streets. We have already been told that if we get told “no” or get a “no” signal, we accept it and move on. Absolutely fine with that. But we cannot have these rules and then conform men to the expectations of being the pursuer all the damn time and not expect that most of these interactions will turn into street harassment, especially when these men turn into martyrs when they do go to TRP/PUA communities that will tell them practical yet messed up tips that just end up making women feel unsafe. This is just backwards and will only ensure that this toxic cycle continues.
What? No. Women don’t feel safe around men because many men, when interacting with women, are fucking creeps.
Let me give you an example.
This guy I would drive occasionally, probably 12 years older than me, reeks of too much cologne, and has zero interest in how anyone else feels about anything other than himself. He’d repeatedly ask me to come hang out with him while I was on shift, saying he’d hire me for an hour or whatever. I told him I wasn’t interested, and yet every time this manchild got into my cab, he felt the need to ask me again. Every time I said no, it seemed to annoy him.
Eventually he said something like ‘I’m not a bad guy you know, all the other drivers come hang out with me’ and I had to put my foot down and tell him I have zero interest in ever hanging out with him, talking to him outside work, or spending a single minute of extra time with him out of the cab. I don’t want to. No.
He was insulted, but finally got the message. He’s either become homeless since then and no longer takes cabs (he was having trouble finding an apartment, can’t imagine why), or he’s started asking for someone else who’ll humor him.
The problem is that this dude, and guys in general who take the view point he espouses, and that you espouse here, is that they don’t see women as people to be friends with, they see us as objects to make them happy.
If he’d just politely asked, accepted the no, and moved on, we’d be fine. I wouldn’t have had to be clear and specific about my lack of desire to interact with him. But he refused to take the rejection over the course of days, continuing to subtly proposition me in a completely inappropriate context. This is the problem.
A woman does not need to approach a man. You have nothing we require. We can exist perfectly fine on our own. That doesn’t mean men suddenly need to spend their every waking moment of interaction with a woman trying to get into her pants.
Want to improve things? Treat women like people rather than goals. Stop thinking about ‘getting’ a woman, and start seeing what kind of relationships you can form with your fellow human beings. Maybe they’ll lead to sex and romance, maybe they won’t, but they’ll be with an actual person sitting in front of you, not an imaginary version of them that you keep locked in your head.
How do you think they became creepy? I don’t think that comes out of nowhere. Or do you think it’s just innate that we’re creepy at some point?
Even that interaction you had with that man was very frightening I understand that. It still doesn’t take away from the original point I made. I’m also sure he also faces these expectations many men face even in today’s society. It doesn’t excuse what he did though.
Where in my post did I even imply we don’t see women as people?
You wanna talk about being treated as a human being but you won’t reciprocate the same. How do you think these men feel at the thought of going up to someone they find attractive and talk to them? If you understand how nerve-wracking it is for men then you wouldn’t be expecting them to make the first move that easily. They don’t need to approach a woman, that doesn’t mean they don’t have sexual needs they need to fulfill, women too. Men would feel desired if women also make the first move and do it very obviously.
Also, let’s not kid ourselves here. If you’re attracted to men in general, there are men out there that you do find attractive. That’s reason enough for you to approach him.
Many women I’ve spoken to expect men to make the first move, and many men tried giving shy men tips on how to make the first move and let her see him as “the man” (a language I hate so much). When I suggest they go up to him and tell him they like him, they prefer to send signals and hope he picks them up instead.
Overall, I can tell from this comment you didn’t read a single word I’ve written on my post. Nowhere did I suggest men should treat women as goalposts, in fact, I didn’t even give any dating advice here at all.
An odd generalisation since many women do approach men and also many women are approached frequently and so their needs are satisfied.
That said, I personally agree. There’s nothing I currently require from a woman, so I don’t approach them romantically.
I’m not diminishing the female experience of male aggression / frustration / awfulness. I’ve never felt physically threatened by a woman. But I have met women who are creepy and persistent, who don’t understand that plenty of men aren’t open to having sex with any woman.