You definitely have a point, and there are definitely women like the one you described in the world. Men 100% deserve to be treated with equality and respect. I’m sorry that you had that experience with your former partner. It’s a garbage, disrespectful move from someone who is supposed to have your back.
But your point does ignore the fact that a majority of women have been raised by parents and by society to be subservient to men.
The person who posted this originally wanted to know why women aren’t taught how to treat men, but the fact is that we are. Constantly. Whether we want to be taught or not. Most of us have learned to do this so deeply that it’s second nature. Most of us don’t even remember learning it because that’s just the way that it is.
This is for a wide variety of reasons, but most of it boils down to men having control over the world for thousands of years and women trying to find the best way to survive and occasionally excel in a world made for and by men. Remember that we used to be (and often still are) considered property. It’s taken a really long time to get as far as we (women) have. My sex has only been able to vote in my country for 100 years. That’s not a lot of time to make major changes in public perception and major societal shifts. We’ve grown a lot, but these shifts come with growing pains.
If we lived in a world where women have to be taught how to treat a male partner well, that means that society isn’t doing the teaching anymore, and while yes, women should treat men with equivalent respect, it’s still a huge improvement societally that women don’t develop ingrained subservience. The woman that you previously dated sounds like part of those growing pains. Some people are always going to take things too far because the line had not previously been defined (even though the golden rule should be pretty common sense).
Conversely, men often have to be taught this because society doesn’t do the teaching. Society is cool with men following the status quo.
Does this give a woman a solid reason to treat another human like trash, no matter their gender? No. This is the big reason why I think feminism is so important. People hear that term and think it means pro-women only, but what it really means is equality for all genders. Full equality should be the goal even if it ends up hurting women a little. For example, one of the few privileges women have that men don’t have is in the courtroom. Women tend to have better outcomes because of biases about our weakness and innocence. Feminism would be working to dismantle something like that even if it gives women an advantage.
Equality is important, but understanding women’s historical growth and struggles is important, too. Women have been taught ad nauseum how to treat men well, but some women are going to make different choices. At the end of the day, I agree with you. I just want people to remember how hard the struggle was for women to get here, understand how far we still have to go to gain real equality, and respect the societal pressures that we deal with every day.
Conversely, men often have to be taught this because society doesn’t do the teaching. Society is cool with men following the status quo.
I wanted to briefly add to this that in WW1, one of the primary concerns of frontline commanders was that the soldiers literally couldn’t take care of themselves. They couldn’t sew, cook for even themselves, clean their clothes properly. I remember a quote from one soldier saying that, to paraphrase, ‘back home mom does everything.’ And then goes on to mention feeling rather helpless when doing even basic things a person needs to do to survive.
So I’m sorry about this entire thread, and, well, this entire issue, to insert my Canadian background on said issue.
I can see how careful you’re being with what you posted, and frankly, I’m sad you have to do that. The fact is men have had it easier for most of our history, and they really hate looking at said fact. Do men have legitimate issues? Absolutely, and feminism addresses them all. ‘The patriarchy’ hurts men and women both.
I won’t lie; I cried a little when I read your comment. It’s really validating and rare to truly be seen. I do tread very carefully to be appropriate, fair, and reasonable in my responses, but I never really expected anyone to see that. I appreciate your comment more than I know how to say.
This is a tough topic because, like you said, it affects literally everyone, no matter their gender, and everyone has different experiences and opinions. I just want everyone who is forming an opinion to see as many different sides and experiences as possible to, at the very least, make an informed decision on the state of gender politics. I know that everyone has their personal biases, and no one wants to give up privileges or power, but at the end of the day, again, like you said, the patriarchy hurts all of us.
I won’t lie; I cried a little when I read your comment. It’s really validating and rare to truly be seen. I do tread very carefully to be appropriate, fair, and reasonable in my responses, but I never really expected anyone to see that. I appreciate your comment more than I know how to say.
Well fuck me, 'cause I shed a tear reading that, so consider it repaid. I don’t know how to respond either, other than to say it feels great to ‘hear’ you say that. I do see your struggle and if it helps any, there are more people like me who see it too, yet don’t know to (or how to) let you know.
I just want everyone who is forming an opinion to see as many different sides and experiences as possible to, at the very least, make an informed decision on the state of gender politics. I know that everyone has their personal biases, and no one wants to give up privileges or power, but at the end of the day, again, like you said, the patriarchy hurts all of us.
And I wanted to thank you for diving through all of the… responses here, and maintaining your composure. I won’t to pretend to understand how you do it, but it is extremely impressive. The moreso because we’re all fighting the same enemy (the wealthy) and again we see men jumping to attack a Lemmy Shitpost for being too unfair to men or whatever. The patriarchy of wealthy people are all our enemies.
I appreciate you. <3
So this is the part I really teared up, thank you very much. It never feels bad to hear it, and I appreciate you as well. I will continue to exist here, absorbing downvotes in my unchecked anger, watching you navigate through with poise.
I think that in fact in at least some cases the lack of respect (or general ability to live a relationship with a man in a mutually loving way) is exactly due to that education. At the end of the day the flipside of the “subservient” attitude is that the man in the relationship is represented as a provider, with all the gender stereotypes that come with it: lack of emotions, self-reliance and of course the expectation for him to be a provider.
I would say that most of the examples of bad relationships in this thread boil down to exactly these dynamics.
Also we are not anymore in the 1950, so that education today mostly happens implicitly, but it also gets mixed up with a lot of other messages from the wider society.
I personally also disagree about the fact that men are not taught how to fit in their gender role. I think they are, since very little, symmetrically to how women are too and possibly even more explicitly: you need to protect women (incl. sacrificing because that’s what heroes do), the whole courtship thing, the fact that as a man you are responsible to provide for others, that there are certain activities that are manly, etc…
Essentially is the exact same problem: gender stereotypes and sexism go both ways and impact both genders, although in different ways.
Feminism is a tool of the ruling class, like racism. A way to turn the working class against each other instead of the ruling class, the owners. That’s why they give feminism so much space in the media and in universities, because it doesn’t really touch the real issues of the world, the billionaires and millionaires exploiting everyone and everything. It doesn’t threaten their rule over the world, by design.
My sex wasn’t allowed to vote in my country 120 years ago either - because only the nobles, the landowners, the priests and the bourgeois were allowed to. Most of the people, regardless of sex, were not allowed to vote.
I would say that what you said applies not to feminism in general (who historically had strong links to class struggle and anticapitalism), but to a part of the modern status quo feminism which is focused purely on individuals and has been absorbed by the ruling class (e.g., once the CEO is a woman, the goal is reached).
This is not a representation of feminism in general though, and I would say the same can apply to many other movements as well (e.g., ambientalism, antiracism, etc.) that (in part) lost their revolutionary nature and are left fighting for small changes within the status quo.
You definitely have a point, and there are definitely women like the one you described in the world. Men 100% deserve to be treated with equality and respect. I’m sorry that you had that experience with your former partner. It’s a garbage, disrespectful move from someone who is supposed to have your back.
But your point does ignore the fact that a majority of women have been raised by parents and by society to be subservient to men. The person who posted this originally wanted to know why women aren’t taught how to treat men, but the fact is that we are. Constantly. Whether we want to be taught or not. Most of us have learned to do this so deeply that it’s second nature. Most of us don’t even remember learning it because that’s just the way that it is.
This is for a wide variety of reasons, but most of it boils down to men having control over the world for thousands of years and women trying to find the best way to survive and occasionally excel in a world made for and by men. Remember that we used to be (and often still are) considered property. It’s taken a really long time to get as far as we (women) have. My sex has only been able to vote in my country for 100 years. That’s not a lot of time to make major changes in public perception and major societal shifts. We’ve grown a lot, but these shifts come with growing pains.
If we lived in a world where women have to be taught how to treat a male partner well, that means that society isn’t doing the teaching anymore, and while yes, women should treat men with equivalent respect, it’s still a huge improvement societally that women don’t develop ingrained subservience. The woman that you previously dated sounds like part of those growing pains. Some people are always going to take things too far because the line had not previously been defined (even though the golden rule should be pretty common sense).
Conversely, men often have to be taught this because society doesn’t do the teaching. Society is cool with men following the status quo.
Does this give a woman a solid reason to treat another human like trash, no matter their gender? No. This is the big reason why I think feminism is so important. People hear that term and think it means pro-women only, but what it really means is equality for all genders. Full equality should be the goal even if it ends up hurting women a little. For example, one of the few privileges women have that men don’t have is in the courtroom. Women tend to have better outcomes because of biases about our weakness and innocence. Feminism would be working to dismantle something like that even if it gives women an advantage.
Equality is important, but understanding women’s historical growth and struggles is important, too. Women have been taught ad nauseum how to treat men well, but some women are going to make different choices. At the end of the day, I agree with you. I just want people to remember how hard the struggle was for women to get here, understand how far we still have to go to gain real equality, and respect the societal pressures that we deal with every day.
I wanted to briefly add to this that in WW1, one of the primary concerns of frontline commanders was that the soldiers literally couldn’t take care of themselves. They couldn’t sew, cook for even themselves, clean their clothes properly. I remember a quote from one soldier saying that, to paraphrase, ‘back home mom does everything.’ And then goes on to mention feeling rather helpless when doing even basic things a person needs to do to survive.
So I’m sorry about this entire thread, and, well, this entire issue, to insert my Canadian background on said issue.
I can see how careful you’re being with what you posted, and frankly, I’m sad you have to do that. The fact is men have had it easier for most of our history, and they really hate looking at said fact. Do men have legitimate issues? Absolutely, and feminism addresses them all. ‘The patriarchy’ hurts men and women both.
So, yeah, thank you. :)
I won’t lie; I cried a little when I read your comment. It’s really validating and rare to truly be seen. I do tread very carefully to be appropriate, fair, and reasonable in my responses, but I never really expected anyone to see that. I appreciate your comment more than I know how to say.
This is a tough topic because, like you said, it affects literally everyone, no matter their gender, and everyone has different experiences and opinions. I just want everyone who is forming an opinion to see as many different sides and experiences as possible to, at the very least, make an informed decision on the state of gender politics. I know that everyone has their personal biases, and no one wants to give up privileges or power, but at the end of the day, again, like you said, the patriarchy hurts all of us.
I appreciate you. <3
Well fuck me, 'cause I shed a tear reading that, so consider it repaid. I don’t know how to respond either, other than to say it feels great to ‘hear’ you say that. I do see your struggle and if it helps any, there are more people like me who see it too, yet don’t know to (or how to) let you know.
And I wanted to thank you for diving through all of the… responses here, and maintaining your composure. I won’t to pretend to understand how you do it, but it is extremely impressive. The moreso because we’re all fighting the same enemy (the wealthy) and again we see men jumping to attack a Lemmy Shitpost for being too unfair to men or whatever. The patriarchy of wealthy people are all our enemies.
So this is the part I really teared up, thank you very much. It never feels bad to hear it, and I appreciate you as well. I will continue to exist here, absorbing downvotes in my unchecked anger, watching you navigate through with poise.
I think that in fact in at least some cases the lack of respect (or general ability to live a relationship with a man in a mutually loving way) is exactly due to that education. At the end of the day the flipside of the “subservient” attitude is that the man in the relationship is represented as a provider, with all the gender stereotypes that come with it: lack of emotions, self-reliance and of course the expectation for him to be a provider. I would say that most of the examples of bad relationships in this thread boil down to exactly these dynamics.
Also we are not anymore in the 1950, so that education today mostly happens implicitly, but it also gets mixed up with a lot of other messages from the wider society.
I personally also disagree about the fact that men are not taught how to fit in their gender role. I think they are, since very little, symmetrically to how women are too and possibly even more explicitly: you need to protect women (incl. sacrificing because that’s what heroes do), the whole courtship thing, the fact that as a man you are responsible to provide for others, that there are certain activities that are manly, etc… Essentially is the exact same problem: gender stereotypes and sexism go both ways and impact both genders, although in different ways.
Feminism is a tool of the ruling class, like racism. A way to turn the working class against each other instead of the ruling class, the owners. That’s why they give feminism so much space in the media and in universities, because it doesn’t really touch the real issues of the world, the billionaires and millionaires exploiting everyone and everything. It doesn’t threaten their rule over the world, by design.
My sex wasn’t allowed to vote in my country 120 years ago either - because only the nobles, the landowners, the priests and the bourgeois were allowed to. Most of the people, regardless of sex, were not allowed to vote.
I would say that what you said applies not to feminism in general (who historically had strong links to class struggle and anticapitalism), but to a part of the modern status quo feminism which is focused purely on individuals and has been absorbed by the ruling class (e.g., once the CEO is a woman, the goal is reached). This is not a representation of feminism in general though, and I would say the same can apply to many other movements as well (e.g., ambientalism, antiracism, etc.) that (in part) lost their revolutionary nature and are left fighting for small changes within the status quo.