This article is inspired by a Youtuber Caitlyn V who is a sex coach. I’ve watched some of her videos and I find them to be very informative, especially about sex. I’ll link it here below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agscWsru7Gk&ab_channel=CaitlinV
She actually goes onto explain how not having sex for a long time can contribute to problems on mental health, emotional health, etc.
The second half of her video has the solutions to these problems and the last point is one I want to expand on. The first 2 solutions was to 1. Create feel good chemicals by exercising, eating healthy, leaning on trusted friends, etc and the 2. one is fuck yourself (not regular masturbation where you race to ejaculation, but slowly taking your time with it.). The third suggestion is where I take issue with and it’s getting a sex worker.
Note I have nothing against sex work. I believe sex work is work and there’s nothing wrong with getting it. My issue with this point is the way I believe society is set up to profit off of lonely and sexually frustrated men.
Paying for sex work is very expensive, like you have to be making the kind of money where the cost to even get these services are casual at best. Even if there are cheap option, I don’t believe many men out there feel they should have to pay for experiences just to feel wanted.
Think about it this way. When you go outside to try to make friends, or to try and talk to a woman you find attractive, you notice how cold and distant people treat you in social places. In the first initial meeting, you’re treated as a potential predator that has to prove himself to be a good person first, and even after you passed the test, you need to be mindful of not making her feel uncomfortable, and make having sex with them feel completely natural. It’s also on you to make the sure interactions you lead the interactions in a way to keep her around, and basically really sell yourself. Couple that with the expectation society has for the man to be the pursuer, all of these things make a very daunting experience for men.
Men don’t have a lot of options when it comes to dating and when they to have the opportunity, are expected to make sure it goes well. This setup creates a very convincing need for sex work, with a high demand of it coming from men because their basic needs aren’t being met consistently.
I believe there needs to be a better solution rather than spending money on experiencing intimacy via sexual services. The most obvious way would be to stop demonizing men at a very ridiculous level, especially at the first meet, but most people on the left space don’t like that idea cuz ‘safety’ and ‘patriarchy’ so obviously getting to a point where we don’t do that is gonna take a long time, we need better short term solutions that doesn’t cost money for that. Sexual services are fine when you get them here and there, not when it becomes a potentially long-term thing (I’ve known men who consistently get sex through prostitutes)
One of the solutions offered by Aba and Preach would be a solution I would offer in helping with this situation as well, mostly short-term.
https://youtu.be/P22ZpncT8B4?t=738
Now they’re saying not to approach women and I don’t think most women put men that approach them on blast that regular, but that’s perfectly valid given the society we’re living in. Me personally, I’ve done a lot of approaching and have been very experienced in it and I haven’t been blasted on media, but this is because I gauge most situations I have going in. The process of learning it today is fucking hard so one slip up in an unlucky situation can turn your life upside down if you get blasted on social media.
Other solutions?
Read books and websites on people skills so you can work on talking to people. Don’t get me wrong, we’ve all had natural experiences with talking to people, so I’m not implying you’re all very socially inept that can’t hold a conversation. I think a lot of the guys here actually have no problem with conversation, especially when talking to women. But maybe you don’t have the kind of friends you do like having around, or maybe you don’t have any afab friends or maybe you do, but again not the ideal person you want in your life. I’m mostly recommending this because if you want to have control over your own life and build better relationships, people skills are crucial. So the next time you’re in a situation where you want to make friends with certain people or talk to a woman you find attractive, you know have the experience backed up to do it
Read books on dating material so you can make up for a lack of experience. However, this bit is very tricky as there’s a lot of toxic dating advice out there. I got proper sources of healthy dating advice if you want my suggestion message me.
Next step is practicality. For social skills, go to a hobby-based group or club and put what you learned to the test. Preferably a new one, as if you’re in an old group, they probably have a set image of you and depending on that, maybe harder to break out of. Finding a new social setting will give you a fresh start if this is the case. For practicing dating skills, I would highly recommend speed dating. Now don’t expect to actually get dates from speed dating. In fact, as a man if you wanna find a date via speed dating, you’re gonna be spending money for a long time. Instead, use them to practice your skills. Each date you have last up to 5 minutes so you have a very short timeframe to work with, but this is perfect as you get to work on initiating conversations and internalizing body language signals being sent out, and you’ll be ‘dating’ multiple people in one setting so you have a lot of volume to work with for one night. This is to help improve your skills quickly, arming you with enough knowledge and experience to navigate life with a prepared lens.
Now the article is written from the perspective of someone that hasn’t gone to any sexual services and don’t really plan to. Has anyone gone to get sexual services? What was it like going there? Do you agree it to be a solution for guys problem with a lack of sex?
I heard their experiences before and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to act this way. I do think there’s a vicious cycle at play that’s making it happen. We’ve done a lot to free women from their traditional role, but we didn’t do the same for men. Instead, we just said “oh since we freed women from their oppressive role, then it should obviously apply to men as well” not realizing that they had strong advocacy for the former but not the latter, which lead to society still having men conform to their expected gender role in the modern times.
We tell guys to be sensible and not bother them randomly, yet we also tell them that if they like a girl, they need to tell her. They’re taught that if they don’t do something, another guy will and he’d lost out on his chance. We set up dynamics where guys are told (either by society’s words or actions) that if he doesn’t take action and make the approach, then he won’t get a date, laid, or a relationship. So they feel the pressure to take action. Because they feel this pressure, and mainstream society has just given them passive advice, they turn to alternative communities which will give them the practicality. That being the PUA/TRP. So they get practible dating tips, but also getting a lot of toxic ideology about women as well. It also doesn’t help that there are some women out there referring to other guys saying “They’re good with women” (I hate this phrase a lot actually) so hearing those words only reaffirms his perceived failures as a mate.
Because of what they’re taught by PUA/TRP, they react poorly to simple rejections from women due to society telling them that their value is tied to how successful they are sexually. “She rejected you because she saw you as low value” “She likes a confident masculine man, not a weak feminine beta” “You’re a nice guy, any woman would be lucky enough to have you” “She rejected you, you need rizz bro” “You’re too nice and she didn’t feel that confidence from you, you need to be more aggressive”. It also doesn’t help when these messages get reinforced when they see other guys who are genuinely confident and masculine at their core with a woman who enthusiastically enjoys his company. They are gonna associated this experience with the ideology they’ve been taught.
Guy gets mad a you for rejecting him? He interprets this as her saying he’s not alpha or valuable enough for her (Thanks Redpill). Following her to a store is very reprehensible, but I’d also say it links back to the expectations as well. Someone grabs your butt at a concert? Maybe that guy thinks that’s how you be an alpha and show her you’re a ‘sexual being’ so she doesn’t see you as a platonic friend. This doesn’t excuse the guys behaviour, many of them are very reprehensible.
This isn’t new. PUA/TRP likely doesn’t exist in third-world countries, but gender roles are very much active there, and I do hear stories of guys attacking women over rejecting them.
Nobody is blaming women for the expectations, they weren’t the ones who set it up. Maybe some women helped set it up, just like men did. But I think as long as we as a society don’t actively fight to free men from the role of the pursuer, they’re gonna feel the pressure to take action, and it’ll result in more women being uncomfortable with guys approaching them, not being able to take rejection well.
Now you are right that most of the things you’ve listed don’t rise to crimes. But there are a lot of women who have said they’re afriad of men due to not wanting to be raped and murdered, which while that fear is very valid, it isn’t statistically common as I mentioned in the previous replies, which never meant you can’t exercise caution. However, with the situations you’ve laid out, they’re very common for women to experience them and it doesn’t need to rise to a level of a crime, which doesn’t make it any less uncomfortable for them anyways.
This explanation isn’t me trying to excuse these guys behaviour. Because they’ve learned it, they need to unlearn these behaviours to ensure we make women feel safe, I am all for that. But we also have to remember guys were put in a position where they feel they have to learn and do this stuff, so to ensure we don’t have a large number of guys going up to make women feel uncomfortable (which still happens), we need to start telling society not to conform men to these roles and not make them feel pressured to be the pursuer all the time, tying his success to that, and finding self-worth through other means. And after we’ve reached a place where women and men are free from their gender role, come up with rules for a more safer courtship, allowing men and women to take initiative with the people they’re interested in.
P.S I had a much more thought out reply before the redirection delete my entire message, so if this one comes off differently here, I do apologize. I was trying to remember things I’ve written out that time before it got deleted.
As for the guy thinking woman is ‘leading him on’. Guys don’t get compliments since they’re expected to go up to her than the other way around. So when they do get a compliment from women, those emotions can be intense. So when he finds out she never meant anything more than that, it flips his world. Though in this case he could learn to manage his emotions so he can receive compliments well.
I almost lost my message too haha. Thanks for typing it out again! I agree that guys aren’t usually doing these things with the goal of making girls uncomfortable, and also agree that their intentions don’t excuse the behavior.
I had the misfortune of needing to learn about abusive relationships (my friend was in one), and the book “Why Does He Do That?” was very eye opening for me. It breaks down the mentality of abusive men, with the main punchline being that abusive men have a worldview where they place impossible expectations on their partner. They’re told “you’ll get a beautiful wife who will take care of your every need” and build an imaginary picture of what their wife will do, then when they date an actual human that obviously doesn’t match their imagined ideal, they get mad at her.
I’m not abusive, but after reading the book I was much more focused of why I was feeling upset, and often it was some version of an impossible expectations that I had put on her, e.g. she should have known that I needed a hug right then (even though I didn’t tell her).
I bring that up because I have a pet theory on why so many men feel lost and turn to PUA/TRP, and it’s that they’re operating under an out of date worldview that creates unrealistic expectations. Ultimately, it comes down to what you said: society has not told us how to be good men.
Here’s my practical advice:
Learn about women. Learn what women think is the problem with men and with society. Listen to female comedians. Learn about feminism. Talk to your female friends. Watch this playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7EjlefWLnxCzLbBHU4Dz6R
Get a hobby that doesn’t involve a screen. Woodworking. Gardening. Get an aquarium. Go backpacking. Learn to ride a unicycle. Try a few out. Do NOT pick something that you think women will think is cool, they are attracted to YOU thinking it’s cool.
Go to therapy. You will develop self awareness and become a better partner.
Don’t watch porn. It fucks up your brain.
Set a time period of at least two months where you will not date and will not think about dating. Dedicate the time to improving yourself.
“They’re operating under a worldview that’s outdated an unrealistic” buddy is this really the takeaway?? It’s not outdated if that expectation is still there. Also you brought up abusive men. Men don’t need to go out approaching women and then become abusive from that. It’s about gaining and maintaining control, which wasn’t what I was talking about. I’m sorry to hear what happened to your friend tho.
“Society has not told us how to be good men” are u fking kidding me?? Society been telling us how to be “good men” and men are still going to PUA/TRP. This isn’t about society encouraging bad behaviour in men, theyre not out here doing that. it’s about putting gendered expectations on them in modern times and leaving them in the dust to figure shit out on their own. I’m saying we need to be teaching Society not to do that so men dont feel the pressure and have their self worth tied to sexual success like society makes it out to be. How in the world did you get my words mixed up?
As for the general tips you’ve laid out I got no problem with them except “learn about feminism” I did and I find out it wasn’t about equality between men and women, but female superiority under the disguise of equality. No way in hell I’m supporting that misandrist ideology.
Yes, I think that is the takeaway, but I don’t think I was clear about which parts were outdated. I agree that there’s an expectation that guys make the first move. This isn’t inherently problematic, until (like you said) getting rejected is taken as a commentary on your value as an individual.
The main problem is the last two - that your value isn’t defined by your success with women. THAT’S the worldview that needs to change, though I make no claim as to what society’s telling men in this regard. Obviously a PUA is going to tell you the opposite, since they’re selling you something. It’s the same thing as a makeup company telling women they’re ugly - it’s good for business.
Re: society teaching us to be good men, I think we’re actually saying the same thing. Society absolutely tells us something, but I argue that the image of a “good man” in movies/culture is NOT actually a good man. The Hallmark stereotype of the guy continuing to pursue a woman after she’s rejected him (and then eventually getting her) is NOT a good man. Being aggressive is NOT being a good man.
Being a good man is being yourself, even if there is pressure to not be. Being a good man is looking out for others. Being a good man is working to make yourself better. Being a good man is knowing that you have value because YOU think so.
Being a good man is hard. It’s letting go of all the rules that you’ve learned. It’s accepting that you have flaws, and working on them. It’s having empathy for those around you, men and women.
A good man walks up to the bar and orders a cosmo, cause he likes it. A good man approaches a woman and is ok with either answer because his self worth isn’t on the line.
PUA/TRP are an easy answer because they are working within society’s toxic worldview that we want to change. “Be more confident/aggressive if you want to get women” isn’t addressing the core belief: you need to have success with women to have value. That is a lie. If you believe that, you will not have success with women, because YOU believe you need them to have value.
Hold up. Why don’t you see the first one as one of the problems?
We’re not talking about media tho. The examples you’re talking about have largely been in the 80s media. Today’s media is nothing like this as it mostly portrays starting out as friends and hoping for something more to just happen between the characters. This is a very passive approach and not at all productive.
Many of your elaborations on what a “good man” is are just tips on how to live life authentically. What we consider “good” is heavily subjective. What you consider is good, someone else might consider standards apart from yours to be good. So just call these tips for what it really is, living authentically.
I gotta break this down. Society as it stands doesn’t share the viewpoint that men have to be aggressive, macho, at least not on the surface. Only PUA/TRP are teaching them that. Mainstream society tells them to just have confidence, to not bother them and leave them alone, just be friends with them, but they also expect men to be the initiators in talking to women at the same time. They assume them to just know how to deal with women which is a very unrealistic expectation to have of men and boys. PUA/TRP doesn’t work because it works with society’s ‘toxic worldview’ (as mainstream society views dating and relationships as something that just happens by luck), it works because it offers practicality that the mainstream failed to provide. Tips that they can use now and see results early on. That is the appeal and why it’s rising.
Society says that “you don’t need to conform yourself to gender roles” and by actions they show women don’t need to, but by those same actions, they show men need to. And how do they do this? There’s an over-emphasis on telling men to leave them alone and never bother them or they risk being a creep or making her feel uncomfortable. Society also says that “women can also make the first move” but let’s be real here. Over 90% of women don’t make the first move, and even when they do, their first move is sending out subtle signals which are hard to pick up, and then some of them wonder why those guys they tried ‘hitting on’ don’t like them. They’d have to go up to a guy and say “Hey, I like you and wanna go out with you” just for them to get the message.
Expecting men to initiate isn’t ideal, but it’s not the primary expectation that’s hurting men. Men are hurt when their perceived value and self worth are tied to their success with women.
I’d compare men’s expectation to initiate to women being expected to wear bikinis - it can make them uncomfortable to be on display, and ideally there wouldn’t be pressure for them to do that, but it’s really not the main problem that they face.
I don’t think a discussion of what “society” expects can happen without discussing media - it shapes our culture.
Do you think good men shouldn’t live authentically? I’d assume most people would think good men live life authentically.
I think when either of us use broad terms like “mainstream society”, “PUA/TRP”, “feminism”, etc, we’re talking about different things - not because either of us is wrong, just because they have fuzzy borders. I think we can agree on the different things men are “sold” and how many of them feel contradictory:
Like you said, these are usually pieces of practical advice, and different things try to “pitch” you on different views - ultimately it’s up to us to decide what we believe.
For me, the way that makes most sense to do that is to keep asking why.
Why shouldn’t you bother women? Because it makes them uncomfortable.
Why does it make them uncomfortable? Because they’ve had bad experiences in the past.
Why have they had bad experiences? Because some men act like assholes when they get rejected.
Why do some men act like assholes? Because getting rejects feels like being told they’re a failure.
Why is that? Because they believe their success is tied to their success with women.\
Why should you make the first move? Because for better or worse, that’s the social contract right now.
Why is that the social contract? Men have been cast as pursuers and women pursued.
Why? Answers vary, but it ultimately doesn’t matter since you’re not gonna be able to change it by yourself.
So, with that in mind, how can you deal with the reality that you’ll often need to initiate if you’re interested?
You can’t change the fact that she’s had bad experiences in the past, so your primary goal in your approach is to make her comfortable. She’s worried you’re one of the guys who gets mad if they get rejected, how can you show that you aren’t? Know your shit. “Hey, have you gotten yelled at for turning down a guy yet tonight? I can try to muster something up for you if you want.” If they’re not interested - that’s OK. Be nice, accept a no, and move on.
I’d say it is. I’d say it’s the main reason a lot of women put up with men approaching & making them uncomfortable. If 90% of women aren’t gonna make the first move on you (cuz they themselves expect men to make the first move including feminists), then to have consistent success, you need to ramp up your efforts a lot higher or nothing will happen. You’re downplaying the scale & importance this factor has on men.
I agree with this statement, but it still doesn’t change my explanation of why it doesn’t match up to today’s reality. Today’s media is not like how you described it to be because the culture we live today isn’t teaching men to pursue a woman after she’s rejected him hoping she’ll change her mind. That trope was played out in 80s media, not today’s media.
These issues are being touted by a large part of society (I’d say even society as a whole) and you wanna just shoehorn that to just “decide what you believe”?? How about we tell society to be consistent with that they preach (& I understand that takes years but we can’t just leave it in the air like that.)
I don’t think you’re being sincere here. The answer to your first question is society conforming men to their gender role and you wanna minimize that to “that’s the social contract right now”. And your answer to that second question ignores the fact that women have already been freed from their role, they’re just choosing not to approach as it’s more convenient for them that way.
Approaching someone you’re interested in is nerve-wracking, of course they don’t wanna put themselves through that. Many anti-feminists claimed, “feminists want the benefits of being equal to men but don’t want the responsibilities that come with it.” This is how you’re coming across rn with your replies.
I agree with this sentiment, but it still won’t make them feel less comfortable when we do approach. We can be as polite and respectful as possible, but many women assume men just want sex from them or assume they might do something worse. And this isn’t a few women, this is a lot of them. They already have a fear of every strange man she comes across like you’ve said, so it’s not just our efforts, it’s by sheer numbers of finding someone who’d at least give us a shot. A lot of single men are checking out of dating for this reason and are hoping luck will bring them a gf. The guys who won’t check out of dating are the assholes who couldn’t care less about women’s safety.
I can tell you from experience that line you just came up here will make her even more uncomfortable guaranteed. When approaching a woman, your primary goal is to make her feel as relaxed when she’s around you so she can engage comfortably. Your example statement brings back horrible memories of yelling, and women often do base their decisions on how they feel in the moment when interacting with a guy. She’ll wanna get away from you faster when you frame it like that.
All in all, this feels like we’re going in circles with this. I’m now at a point of stopping this discussion with you weather you reply or not.
That I think takes the cake for the most hilariously bad pickup line I’ve ever heard 🤣. I guarantee that would make a girl uncomfortable.
I agree with your comments u/Mshuser, it seems like your interlocutor can’t understand that society’s expectations are the problem, not men’s sense of self worth. Again, unsurprisingly, they conclude that men are uniquely the problem and that this is an individual problem they must solve themselves with no help from anyone else.
In regard to the issue of women not making the first move, most men know that they will likely remain alone if they don’t initiate. Women by and large don’t initiate (there are exceptions, but that’s the rule), which I get. It’s nerve-wracking like you said and extremely uncomfortable sticking yourself out there just to more than likely be rejected. But then again, women are far more likely to get a yes than men are.
Ultimately, only women have the power to change this societal expectation. If you see someone you’re interested in, strike up a conversation with him or ask him out, depending on the situation, instead of hoping that he’ll telepathically know you’re into him.