For those who don’t know, the US systematically mutilates the genitals of baby boys and young boys.Sciences points to the foreskin being a protective and erogenous dual layered membrane.
It is not ‘one side’ pushing this. This is how the American people take their aggression out on males.
You had me until the last sentence. There are a lot of deeply misguided—and plain fucking stupid—reasons that circumcision has become seen as the ‘norm’ in the US, but I don’t think it’s how the American people takes its aggression out on men?? That’s a pretty unhinged thing to think. I understand the anger and frustration at genital mutilation of babies (bc that’s what it is, in my opinion), but let’s come back to earth a bit.
EDIT: since this comment is getting attention, I just wanted to add that it really does seem like people are waking up to how fucked circumcision is. We just had a baby, and as part of our stack of information brochures given to us by the hospital (in Oklahoma, a deeply red state), there was a whole page dedicated to circumcision pros and cons. You could tell it heavily favored not circumcising, and preserving bodily autonomy was it’s own full bullet point on the cons side, as well as busting myths that people perpetuate trying to justify it still.
Also, in our infant care courses, they showed some really awful pictures of freshly-circumcised baby penises. We had already decided not to circumcise for obvious moral reasons, but that made us feel even more secure in our decision. I feel like more parents need to see that stuff to make them realize what’s actually going to be done to their baby with the procedure.
All that to say, I think there’s hope for decreasing the occurrences of this deeply awful cultural practice!
Leveraging the broken health care system to attack the revanchist cultural system?
I mean, maybe. But when child birth already runs into the $20k-$50k range, I doubt anyone is going to notice the $150 they charge for foreskin removal until the bill arrives.
That’s what they’re saying. The typical cost is $20k-$50k, with all but ~$3k covered by insurance.
If insurance doesn’t cover it it’s now $1200 out of pocket.
Making it illegal would be better, but that requires convincing people. Even if you approve of circumcision, you’re still not going to be surprised when your insurance company drops what you consider to be something important.
I can honestly tell you I did not search very hard. First results for how much it cost said $500 cash price, and up to $4000 as billed to insurance. I picked a number in the middle.
Honestly it didn’t seem that weird to me that removing skin from the genitals of a newborn would be along the same price as non-invasive outpatient surgery.
It’s an online discussion. I’m not going to go price shopping for average circumcision costs by state broken down by insurance coverage.
Random urologist lists cash and insurance prices for infant circumcision? Done, that’s the range I’m using.
None of that has anything to do with the US “taking aggression out on males”. Circumcision should be stopped but you’re grasping for reasons here–there’s no countrywide conspiracy to continue pushing it. The reasons are from historical pseudoscience and it’s been in decline for 30 years.
You speak like a kid who just learned how to use swear words… is this really the best trolling attempt you can do? C’mon, I’m sure you can do better than just hurling F-bombs everywhere.
I don’t really know what their problem was. Could legitimately be a kid or someone who’s never grown past the “swearing at people is funny” stage. Whichever it is, I hope this got it out of their system. Or we’ll see another brand new account doing the same thing, who knows?
Indeed. But unlike the sea lions and concern trolls at least you don’t have to read 5 paragraphs before figuring out that you should’ve blocked this person before you wasted your 30 seconds.
The linked comment offers three options and I bet it’s right:
Warning that this topic draws a lot of insane people with genital mutilation fetishes. Any of the comments advocating for circumcision are either men who were circumcised against their will, women who circumcised their children and haven’t accepted the truth, or weirdos who want others to suffer.
While I whole heartedly disagree with the practice of circumsizing babies. (babies can’t consent therfore an unnecessary procedure is just flat out unethical) It’s not really true to say science shows that the foreskin is erogenous or even that circumcision affects sexual pleasure.
There is a bit of conflicting data out there so there is still some debate over the fact but right now the data leans heavily toward there being little to no adverse affects on sexual pleasure. And in fact some anecdotal evidence actually seems to show that the opposite may be true; that circumsized penises may actually be more sensitive to sexual stimuli.
Again though, I can’t stress enough how much I believe circumsicion is wrong.
The studies around this are very often heavily biased.
The main reason it was pushed in the states in the first place was because of an anti-masturbatory craze.
Growing up (like 25 years ago) it was a bit weird how lotion was so strongly shorthand for masturbation in American TV and movies. Didn’t really get it until I learned a lot of circumcised guys prefer or even require lotion for masturbation.
Curious study. I personally only have my self as a test subject, so it’s quite subjective, however I use the foreskin quite a bit for stimulation, not really as an erogenous zone, more of a way to slide it in, it also helps prevent lubricants from drying up, since without at least spit it just hurts. It’s REALLY sensitive under there and fucking hurts when rubbed by just about anything else, if I didn’t have foreskin, it would have to become significantly more numb before I could rejoin society. Actual sex might not be as affected, but masturbation as I know it would cease to be.
That’s really interesting actually. Might be why there’s reports of things being more sensitive after adult circumsion. You’re removing a protective layer that’s been covering that super sensitive part of you all your life. All of a sudden it’s gone and now that part is exposed.
This is gonna be a silly anology but I wonder if it’s anything like playing guitar. When you first start, your fingertips hurt a bunch but as you play you build up calluses in addition to the fingertips just becoming partially numb so it stops hurting as much.
If I remember correctly, the top layers of the glans keratinize (in a similar way to your hands may form callouses) causing a long term loss in sensitivity. Adult circumcisions are probably more sensitive post op because the glans is left completely exposed when it was once covered and hasn’t had the time to adapt. I’m uncircumcised and the thought of boxers brushing up against my bits while my heads’ exposed sounds fucking awful haha
I’m circumcised, and my glans is the least sensitive flesh on my body.
When I scrape gently with a toothpick, I can feel it more clearly on the bottom of the heel of my foot than I can on the head of my penis.
It’s supposed to be ultra sensitive, yet the only way I can determine it’s being touched is visually, or by sensing the vibrations of contact deeper in the shaft.
“The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.”
"This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning. Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population. Before circumcision without medical indication, adult men, and parents considering circumcision of their sons, should be informed of the importance of the foreskin in male sexuality. "
Source
Heads up, that source is written by Brian J. Morris, who is rather infamous having a circumcision fetish, and has a habit of peddling shitty studies meant to skew cultural acceptance of circumcision. Nine times out of ten, when people post pro-circumcision studies, they’re from him. He is downright obsessed with it, constantly pumping out studies and publications solely about circumcision.
there isn’t conflicting data, there’s people without foreskins not knowing what they’ve lost and people with foreskins who don’t know how to jerk it properly.
as someone with a foreskin i can tell you with the utmost certainty that it is an erogenous zone and makes the experience infinitely better, it is unfathomable to me how circumcized people are even capable of masturbation and intercourse, it’s like trying to swim without feet.
Wasn’t it the point of religious nutter ? To prevent kids and people in general from masturbating because they think it is sin ? IMO it ls very obvious that it reduces sexual pleasure.
He was also an advocate for female circumcision (which is illegal in most of the non-muslim world and is mostly used as a mechanism to prevent women from having sex or to remove the pleasure from sex, it’s a very cruel act)
In the same thread you can find this (the link doesn’t work anymore though)
Another person already wrote about the academic bias that Brian Morris has, and how he’s trying to tilt the body of research to support circumcision. It’s also important to note that Brian Morris has a circumcision fetish, he gets sexual pleasure from seeing people getting circumcised and he is a member of the Gilgal Society, a circ fetish group. His name has been included in Gilgal pamphlets and in some of his early research papers he thanked the Gilgals for providing information and support.
I recently found a sub called r/DebunkingIntactivism (a “pro-circumcision” sub) and it’s… it’s fucking nutters. The people there talk like they’ve completely lost their minds. It’s basically where a bunch of insecure circumcised dudes go to fume over other people not being mutilated, and make “slurs” for them and stuff. Anyways the few weirdos that are active in that sub love to cite that guy and only that guy a lot.
Yeaaah. Seems I’ve unintentionally sited some weird fucking guy. That’ll teach me to not look into the writers of a study before I post about it. Fucking yikes…
Sounds to me that lemmings never go outside and converse with people. Damn people here are pedantic as a motherfucker. The only joke you know is the one staring back at you in the mirror.
While the other user hasn’t explained why it is relevant, they are correct in that it is relevant. This is because circumcision usually removes the frenulum, or at least a large chunk of it. And it’s downright criminal because the frenulum is very sensitive. What little left I have is the most sensitive part of mine.
You sure make a lot of requests and claims for someone that created an account just for this post. And just to clarify, pointing out fallacies IS a valid argument. You don’t get to spit out shit and expect people to accept it at face value.
For those who don’t know, the US systematically mutilates the genitals of baby boys and young boys.Sciences points to the foreskin being a protective and erogenous dual layered membrane.
It is not ‘one side’ pushing this. This is how the American people take their aggression out on males.
You had me until the last sentence. There are a lot of deeply misguided—and plain fucking stupid—reasons that circumcision has become seen as the ‘norm’ in the US, but I don’t think it’s how the American people takes its aggression out on men?? That’s a pretty unhinged thing to think. I understand the anger and frustration at genital mutilation of babies (bc that’s what it is, in my opinion), but let’s come back to earth a bit.
EDIT: since this comment is getting attention, I just wanted to add that it really does seem like people are waking up to how fucked circumcision is. We just had a baby, and as part of our stack of information brochures given to us by the hospital (in Oklahoma, a deeply red state), there was a whole page dedicated to circumcision pros and cons. You could tell it heavily favored not circumcising, and preserving bodily autonomy was it’s own full bullet point on the cons side, as well as busting myths that people perpetuate trying to justify it still.
Also, in our infant care courses, they showed some really awful pictures of freshly-circumcised baby penises. We had already decided not to circumcise for obvious moral reasons, but that made us feel even more secure in our decision. I feel like more parents need to see that stuff to make them realize what’s actually going to be done to their baby with the procedure.
All that to say, I think there’s hope for decreasing the occurrences of this deeply awful cultural practice!
Insurance companies should do what they do and make it be a cosmetic surgery and not cover it. It should cost thousands in cash.
At a minimum. Also, the law should make it illegal.
Unless it’s out of medical necessity
Correct. And preventative doesn’t count as “necessary” unless it’s preventing seriously elevated risk of death in the near term.
Even better would be to simply banun, unless there are proven medical reasons.
Leveraging the broken health care system to attack the revanchist cultural system?
I mean, maybe. But when child birth already runs into the $20k-$50k range, I doubt anyone is going to notice the $150 they charge for foreskin removal until the bill arrives.
That’s what they’re saying. The typical cost is $20k-$50k, with all but ~$3k covered by insurance.
If insurance doesn’t cover it it’s now $1200 out of pocket.
Making it illegal would be better, but that requires convincing people. Even if you approve of circumcision, you’re still not going to be surprised when your insurance company drops what you consider to be something important.
Where does a routine circumcision cost $1200? That’s the same as Lasik.
Maybe you could try this by leveraging all the anti-Trans legislation.
I can honestly tell you I did not search very hard. First results for how much it cost said $500 cash price, and up to $4000 as billed to insurance. I picked a number in the middle.
Honestly it didn’t seem that weird to me that removing skin from the genitals of a newborn would be along the same price as non-invasive outpatient surgery.
:-/
It’s an online discussion. I’m not going to go price shopping for average circumcision costs by state broken down by insurance coverage.
Random urologist lists cash and insurance prices for infant circumcision? Done, that’s the range I’m using.
Meh, it’d be a $200 add-on charge.
An eye for an eye is pretty aggressive when it comes to penis mutilation, especially as the babies haven’t done anything (wrong) yet.
Relevant post https://lemmy.world/comment/7949837
None of that has anything to do with the US “taking aggression out on males”. Circumcision should be stopped but you’re grasping for reasons here–there’s no countrywide conspiracy to continue pushing it. The reasons are from historical pseudoscience and it’s been in decline for 30 years.
That was a rabbit hole of reading.
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As somebody who was circumcised at a young age as so many of us were, no, fuck you.
You speak like a kid who just learned how to use swear words… is this really the best trolling attempt you can do? C’mon, I’m sure you can do better than just hurling F-bombs everywhere.
Did they just create an account just to attack this guy? Is that a thing people do? Like, why? Seems like a lot of trouble.
I don’t really know what their problem was. Could legitimately be a kid or someone who’s never grown past the “swearing at people is funny” stage. Whichever it is, I hope this got it out of their system. Or we’ll see another brand new account doing the same thing, who knows?
Indeed. But unlike the sea lions and concern trolls at least you don’t have to read 5 paragraphs before figuring out that you should’ve blocked this person before you wasted your 30 seconds.
Sometimes they make it easy on you
What? What are you so mad about?
The linked comment offers three options and I bet it’s right:
Just to add: its not unique to the US, its even more common in many African, Middle Eastern, and majority Muslim countries
While I whole heartedly disagree with the practice of circumsizing babies. (babies can’t consent therfore an unnecessary procedure is just flat out unethical) It’s not really true to say science shows that the foreskin is erogenous or even that circumcision affects sexual pleasure.
There is a bit of conflicting data out there so there is still some debate over the fact but right now the data leans heavily toward there being little to no adverse affects on sexual pleasure. And in fact some anecdotal evidence actually seems to show that the opposite may be true; that circumsized penises may actually be more sensitive to sexual stimuli.
Again though, I can’t stress enough how much I believe circumsicion is wrong.
Source
Edit: hey guys. Coming back to this and uh, have learned some things. I’d like to retract this statement pretty please. Please forgive me.
The studies around this are very often heavily biased.
The main reason it was pushed in the states in the first place was because of an anti-masturbatory craze.
Growing up (like 25 years ago) it was a bit weird how lotion was so strongly shorthand for masturbation in American TV and movies. Didn’t really get it until I learned a lot of circumcised guys prefer or even require lotion for masturbation.
I’m circumsized, but apparently they didn’t go too short, as I’ve never needed lotion to jerk off. I would hate to get it in the urethra anyway…
Curious study. I personally only have my self as a test subject, so it’s quite subjective, however I use the foreskin quite a bit for stimulation, not really as an erogenous zone, more of a way to slide it in, it also helps prevent lubricants from drying up, since without at least spit it just hurts. It’s REALLY sensitive under there and fucking hurts when rubbed by just about anything else, if I didn’t have foreskin, it would have to become significantly more numb before I could rejoin society. Actual sex might not be as affected, but masturbation as I know it would cease to be.
That’s really interesting actually. Might be why there’s reports of things being more sensitive after adult circumsion. You’re removing a protective layer that’s been covering that super sensitive part of you all your life. All of a sudden it’s gone and now that part is exposed.
This is gonna be a silly anology but I wonder if it’s anything like playing guitar. When you first start, your fingertips hurt a bunch but as you play you build up calluses in addition to the fingertips just becoming partially numb so it stops hurting as much.
If I remember correctly, the top layers of the glans keratinize (in a similar way to your hands may form callouses) causing a long term loss in sensitivity. Adult circumcisions are probably more sensitive post op because the glans is left completely exposed when it was once covered and hasn’t had the time to adapt. I’m uncircumcised and the thought of boxers brushing up against my bits while my heads’ exposed sounds fucking awful haha
Lol, could be xD
I’m circumcised, and my glans is the least sensitive flesh on my body.
When I scrape gently with a toothpick, I can feel it more clearly on the bottom of the heel of my foot than I can on the head of my penis.
It’s supposed to be ultra sensitive, yet the only way I can determine it’s being touched is visually, or by sensing the vibrations of contact deeper in the shaft.
Damn, wouldn’t think I’d be that insensitive. Yea no for me, just pulling back the foreskin and putting it back into my pants as is kinda hurts.
https://bjui-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x
“The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23374102/
"This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning. Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population. Before circumcision without medical indication, adult men, and parents considering circumcision of their sons, should be informed of the importance of the foreskin in male sexuality. "
Heads up, that source is written by Brian J. Morris, who is rather infamous having a circumcision fetish, and has a habit of peddling shitty studies meant to skew cultural acceptance of circumcision. Nine times out of ten, when people post pro-circumcision studies, they’re from him. He is downright obsessed with it, constantly pumping out studies and publications solely about circumcision.
https://en.intactiwiki.org/wiki/Circlist
Take this above link with a grain of salt, it is literally from intact wiki, but still.
Here is a more educated breakdown:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1078529309478838272.html
there isn’t conflicting data, there’s people without foreskins not knowing what they’ve lost and people with foreskins who don’t know how to jerk it properly.
as someone with a foreskin i can tell you with the utmost certainty that it is an erogenous zone and makes the experience infinitely better, it is unfathomable to me how circumcized people are even capable of masturbation and intercourse, it’s like trying to swim without feet.
Wasn’t it the point of religious nutter ? To prevent kids and people in general from masturbating because they think it is sin ? IMO it ls very obvious that it reduces sexual pleasure.
As the owner of a foreskin, fuck science. Yes, it is erogenous.
But where’s the data indicating the nose is where smelling happens? Where’s the science??
I’m willing to accept scientific BJs to attest where it happens.
Brian Morris is a sadistic fundamentalist Christian creep and a fraud
There’s also this comment that goes into it well
He was also an advocate for female circumcision (which is illegal in most of the non-muslim world and is mostly used as a mechanism to prevent women from having sex or to remove the pleasure from sex, it’s a very cruel act)
In the same thread you can find this (the link doesn’t work anymore though)
I recently found a sub called r/DebunkingIntactivism (a “pro-circumcision” sub) and it’s… it’s fucking nutters. The people there talk like they’ve completely lost their minds. It’s basically where a bunch of insecure circumcised dudes go to fume over other people not being mutilated, and make “slurs” for them and stuff. Anyways the few weirdos that are active in that sub love to cite that guy and only that guy a lot.
Here’s some posts from that weird fetishist cult community btw. These guys are obsessed… maybe Morris’ alt accounts? lol
spoiler
Yeaaah. Seems I’ve unintentionally sited some weird fucking guy. That’ll teach me to not look into the writers of a study before I post about it. Fucking yikes…
You’ve gotta be batshit insane to deny such an obvious fact. You gonna show me a study that says the sky may or may not be blue next?
The sky isn’t blue, it just appears to be blue because of space.
No, it appears to be blue due to blue light being scattered more than longer wavelengths.
Like how we don’t say that blue glass is blue because it’s really just the light that’s blue?
Appearing blue when looked at is what it means for something to be blue.
If you’re gonna be that type of pedantic, just jump straight to “nothing has color but light”.
Sounds to me that lemmings never go outside and converse with people. Damn people here are pedantic as a motherfucker. The only joke you know is the one staring back at you in the mirror.
Or your joke was just so unfunny that it wasn’t recognizable as a joke and was mistaken for your honest opinion.
If no one laughed at your joke, maybe it’s because it wasn’t funny.
False. Educate yourself on the ridged band and frenulum
I mean. I provided an actual source for my statement with aggregated data supporting my point. You, however, have not.
Sounds like you need to be educated.
And also the frenulum is not the foreskin.
While the other user hasn’t explained why it is relevant, they are correct in that it is relevant. This is because circumcision usually removes the frenulum, or at least a large chunk of it. And it’s downright criminal because the frenulum is very sensitive. What little left I have is the most sensitive part of mine.
Propaganda and bad faith. Get out of here with your pseudoscience
Brian Morris is a proven fraud
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You sure make a lot of requests and claims for someone that created an account just for this post. And just to clarify, pointing out fallacies IS a valid argument. You don’t get to spit out shit and expect people to accept it at face value.
Idk man he threw out a couple of terms and googling really isn’t that hard.
I didn’t know about “the ridged band”.
https://en.intactiwiki.org/wiki/Ridged_band
Now I do.
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