Then we’ve answered your question about why people “can’t just mind their own business”.
You’re just able to twist anything and disguise it as empathy “for the children” and couldn’t care the least what the children actually want.
If you’re just going to assume that anyone who disagrees with you does so on the basis that they’re just a giant piece of shit out to hurt people for no reason, then there is no discussion to be had, and no progress to be made.
Maybe open your mind to the possibility that that’s not true, and that people simply have legitimate concerns for children, much like yourself, even if they are misplaced. If you want to actually improve the situation you’ll try to empathize and educate them rather than instantly lambast them and treat them like human garbage.
The difference is that a blanket ban, even a temporary one “just in case”, is actively hurting children. In the UK, trans teenagers need several years of counseling and doctor visits and jumping through hoops before they can actively start transitioning. These drugs help at least halting puberty, otherwise total transition is much harder or impossible. I don’t think these drugs should be easily accessible, but right now it’s already so hard to get, that kids are getting them from the dark web in secret!
Sure, there are bad parents, and abusive parents. But you can’t justify saving children by hurting other children. I’m not “assuming” anything. Defending this ban is literally hurting children.
Again, you are still trying to argue about why the OP topic is bad. I know. I agree. That is not the conversation I am trying to have.
But you can’t justify saving children by hurting other children…Defending this ban is literally hurting children.
Other people disagree with you. That is the whole point. They would say the exact same thing about you. That doesn’t make them bad people, it just makes them misinformed.
So, if I had some “””genuine concerns””” about how Jews control the world through a shadowy cabal of financial institutions, owned the world media, etc. etc. would you argue that people should hear me out, empathise and discuss the topic with me?
That’s a really idealistic position to hold, and I gotta say that I disagree with your conclusion. There are some opinions that we must not tolerate in society for it to work, and I’d say this is one of those positions - it’s the whole paradox of intolerance - if you have a bar that lets nazis hang out there, you end up with a nazi bar.
I’m not saying that there aren’t regular, reasonable people who have genuine concern based in the wellbeing of kids who feel uncomfortable about gender affirming care, of course those people exist and it’s great that there are people willing to talk to those individuals and try to help them realise why their concerns are unfounded. But I have to say that I feel like your position, that we should engage in good faith with people purporting extreme hateful ideology, is extremely harmful. If you want to do it, sure, go ahead, but tone policing people is really unacceptable imo.
It’s possible to have a reasoned discussion without “tolerating” the position.
I’m not saying that there aren’t regular, reasonable people who have genuine concern based in the wellbeing of kids who feel uncomfortable about gender affirming care
Then I don’t understand why you’re arguing with me. That’s all I’m saying.
But I have to say that I feel like your position, that we should engage in good faith with people purporting extreme hateful ideology, is extremely harmful
It’s only “hateful” if you assume their view can be solely attributed to malice, which you’ve already admitted is not necessarily the case.
And judging them and lobbing insults is super helpful?
but tone policing people is really unacceptable imo
LOL “tone policing”? What does that even mean? I don’t even know what your, or anyone else’s tone is.
I wasn’t looking for an argument really, I was curious about your position and the limits it went to, so I asked my initial question, then I was just subsequently explaining why I disagreed with your position - maybe not very well though, sorry about that.
The majority of the commenters online aren’t good faith regular people with a few concerns that they want to talk about. A good chunk of them are genocidal. They’re long past the ability of being talked down from their positions, especially online. So all having a reasonable discussion accomplishes is giving people a platform and opportunity to spread hateful rhetoric that gets people killed.
Hate can coexist with feelings other than malice. Most hate movements grow out of some sense of victimisation and protecting some ideal. That doesn’t make them any less detestable or tolerable.
I absolutely believe that lobbing insults and judging people for spreading hateful ideology is very useful. Ridicule and shame are probably the most powerful weapons we have against hateful ideologies, because it discourages people who might otherwise give their beliefs consideration from engaging and interacting with them. Ideally, we would make all social media absolutely intolerant towards them so that anyone sharing racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. is generally completely excluded from the online community. I think that’s a very effective method to reduce the spread of hateful ideologies online.
Tone policing is when you scold people for their “tone”, i.e. being rude/impolite/insulting/dismissive etc. For example if you tell people that they shouldn’t tell nazis to fuck off and die because that’s rude or whatever, that’s tone policing.
Then we’ve answered your question about why people “can’t just mind their own business”.
If you’re just going to assume that anyone who disagrees with you does so on the basis that they’re just a giant piece of shit out to hurt people for no reason, then there is no discussion to be had, and no progress to be made.
Maybe open your mind to the possibility that that’s not true, and that people simply have legitimate concerns for children, much like yourself, even if they are misplaced. If you want to actually improve the situation you’ll try to empathize and educate them rather than instantly lambast them and treat them like human garbage.
The difference is that a blanket ban, even a temporary one “just in case”, is actively hurting children. In the UK, trans teenagers need several years of counseling and doctor visits and jumping through hoops before they can actively start transitioning. These drugs help at least halting puberty, otherwise total transition is much harder or impossible. I don’t think these drugs should be easily accessible, but right now it’s already so hard to get, that kids are getting them from the dark web in secret!
Sure, there are bad parents, and abusive parents. But you can’t justify saving children by hurting other children. I’m not “assuming” anything. Defending this ban is literally hurting children.
Again, you are still trying to argue about why the OP topic is bad. I know. I agree. That is not the conversation I am trying to have.
Other people disagree with you. That is the whole point. They would say the exact same thing about you. That doesn’t make them bad people, it just makes them misinformed.
So, if I had some “””genuine concerns””” about how Jews control the world through a shadowy cabal of financial institutions, owned the world media, etc. etc. would you argue that people should hear me out, empathise and discuss the topic with me?
Of course I would, that’s the only way we solve problems.
That’s a really idealistic position to hold, and I gotta say that I disagree with your conclusion. There are some opinions that we must not tolerate in society for it to work, and I’d say this is one of those positions - it’s the whole paradox of intolerance - if you have a bar that lets nazis hang out there, you end up with a nazi bar.
I’m not saying that there aren’t regular, reasonable people who have genuine concern based in the wellbeing of kids who feel uncomfortable about gender affirming care, of course those people exist and it’s great that there are people willing to talk to those individuals and try to help them realise why their concerns are unfounded. But I have to say that I feel like your position, that we should engage in good faith with people purporting extreme hateful ideology, is extremely harmful. If you want to do it, sure, go ahead, but tone policing people is really unacceptable imo.
I respect your opinion 🙃
It’s possible to have a reasoned discussion without “tolerating” the position.
Then I don’t understand why you’re arguing with me. That’s all I’m saying.
It’s only “hateful” if you assume their view can be solely attributed to malice, which you’ve already admitted is not necessarily the case.
And judging them and lobbing insults is super helpful?
LOL “tone policing”? What does that even mean? I don’t even know what your, or anyone else’s tone is.
I wasn’t looking for an argument really, I was curious about your position and the limits it went to, so I asked my initial question, then I was just subsequently explaining why I disagreed with your position - maybe not very well though, sorry about that.
The majority of the commenters online aren’t good faith regular people with a few concerns that they want to talk about. A good chunk of them are genocidal. They’re long past the ability of being talked down from their positions, especially online. So all having a reasonable discussion accomplishes is giving people a platform and opportunity to spread hateful rhetoric that gets people killed.
Hate can coexist with feelings other than malice. Most hate movements grow out of some sense of victimisation and protecting some ideal. That doesn’t make them any less detestable or tolerable.
I absolutely believe that lobbing insults and judging people for spreading hateful ideology is very useful. Ridicule and shame are probably the most powerful weapons we have against hateful ideologies, because it discourages people who might otherwise give their beliefs consideration from engaging and interacting with them. Ideally, we would make all social media absolutely intolerant towards them so that anyone sharing racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. is generally completely excluded from the online community. I think that’s a very effective method to reduce the spread of hateful ideologies online.
Tone policing is when you scold people for their “tone”, i.e. being rude/impolite/insulting/dismissive etc. For example if you tell people that they shouldn’t tell nazis to fuck off and die because that’s rude or whatever, that’s tone policing.
Then you’re delusional.
There, have I changed your opinion or I have I given you even more conviction?