“The approach we were told to take is that Kirk really had to be the one to lead everyone. […] Not necessarily that he had to actually have the idea to do something, but it had to appear as if he has the idea.”
Krikes recalled how illogical the mandate was, and how, when you watch the film, you can see how Kirk has been arbitrarily inserted into various scenes where he doesn’t belong. For example, there’s a scene near the end of the movie in which Spock (Nimoy) has a conversation with his father Sarek (Mark Lenard). Kirk is present in the background, watching the conversation. There is no reason for him to be there. But, golly, that’s what Paramount wanted.
…
“I think the perfect example in the movie is when Spock goes into the belly of the Bird of Prey to use the computers and learns that the sound is whale songs. It’s Kirk who has the idea to go back through time, although Spock is the one who plants the suggestion in Kirk’s mind. Kirk verbalizes it, and that’s the way it had to be played. We were told Bill had to be the leader at all times. In that scene, if you’re reading it, you say, ‘It’s Spock’s idea,’ but on film, Spock’s discovery that it’s humpback whales is not as important as Kirk’s idea of going to get them.”
I really enjoy the movie despite the problems, but it does have huge problems. And thankfully some of the stuff (no swearing in the 23rd century) has been retconned.
Edit: Since I already opened this can of worms, my biggest problem with ST IV, by far, is that Kirk and his crew have major difficulties adapting to 1980s Earth when not only do they not have that difficulty when on clandestine missions on entirely alien planets, Kirk and Spock do not seem to have a problem adapting to 1930s Earth in City on the Edge of Forever.
It kind of makes them seem inept and it bothers me.
My head canon attributes the crew’s poor adaptability to the 1980s to having made the trip in a Klingon bird of prey, which almost certainly would not have had good historical data about 20th century Earth. No data, no “here’s how to act” briefing.
But credit to Kirk for having “double dumbass on you!” at the ready. Absolutely devastating.
That would work except that Kirk and Spock went back to the 1930s with no data whatsoever and still adapted quickly.
Didn’t they have that historian with them? I believe he got shot not long into the mission, but they did go down to the planet with a historian who knew about the 1930s and gangsters.
You’re thinking of A Piece of the Action. In City on the Edge of Forever, McCoy goes through the Guardian of Forever and Kirk and Spock go through after him. All three adapt just fine, including McCoy, who is also insane.
No, what I’m thinking of was a season 2 TNG episode where a historian goes onto the holodeck into one of Picard’s Dixon Hill holonovels, and he gets shot and dies.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Fair enough. I was just guessing to be honest since you were thinking 1930s episode. I haven’t seen A Piece of the Action in years. Other than the fun part where Kirk teaches the two thugs Fizzbin and the concept of cultural contamination being a reason for the Prime Directive, it’s a really stupid episode.
Edit: also the planet modeled itself on a book about Chicago mobs of the 1920s, not the 1930s. Oops. Must have been a really detailed book.
It might also have been a piece of the action. I think this happens in both (historian getting shot).
I think you responded before my edit, which was not very important, but for your sake:
I always took that to mean that the concept of a forbidden word had lost all meaning in the future post-scarcity society with strong civil rights.
So, in my head-canon, people in the future who do curse, do so as an academic hobby.
They’ve actively studied what combinations of words would have caused alarm in a chosen century of history, and then use those words. Anyone who reacts to the fact that they’re cursing, in my head-canon, is reacting to the fact that they clearly intended to curse, having studied how to do so, and were looking for a reaction.
I suppose, but it’s not presented that way in the dialogue:
(Sorry about the bad transcript, it was the first one I could find.)
I wouldn’t exactly call either Jaqueline Susann or Harold Robins to be examples of authors known to have excessive swearing in their books. The problem is that the punchline doesn’t work unless it’s those sort of authors and not authors of the time who did have extremely sweary books, like John Irving. So it makes it sound like everyone in the 23rd century is a prude who basically doesn’t swear.
And Kirk not understanding how ‘dumbass’ worked kind of cemented that in.
In my head-canon, it’s boredom, not prudishness, that caused swearing to die out.
Almost no one in the future swears because it’s not any fun anymore, because almost no one else cares.
This allows for i.e. Mariner being intentionally fluent in 20th century swears, and command crew around Mariner reacting - not because anyone cares in the 24th century about those words, but only because they know Mariner explicitly intentionally chose those words to cause annoyance.
It also allows Kirk, another academically minded rebel, to have some poorly researched idea how to swear in the 29th century, while Spock is genuinely confused at encountering a long dead way of speaking.
Yeah, but it didn’t die out. Not just Mariner and T’Ana swear. There’s plenty of swearing in Discovery and SNW. It’s been retconned and rightly so.
Edit: And Raffi swears in Picard as well. And then there’s Data’s “oh shit” when the Enterprise crashes in Generations. Plus, you know McCoy swore as much as T’Ana did, they just couldn’t broadcast it.
Yeah. Bones absolutely was meant to swear like a sailor, and couldn’t get out part the censors.
This all still fits my head-canon, in case it helps you enjoy Trek IV more.
In my head canon, It’s not that swearing died out. What died off is any particular words being exceptional or able to cause offense.
Spock is confused in the 20th century, because the angry man expected a reaction to his swearing.
A typical angry 24th century person wouldn’t waste their energy adding swears when truly angry, because the swears don’t bring any additional reaction.
We do see some evidence of this in other Trek - 24th century people (at least federation officers) are often shown to get very articulate, when angry.
So I attribute Spock’s confusion to encountering a 20th century person who became less articulate, when angered. Then Kirk has to try to explain that the selected (less specific) words carry 20th century cultural significance.
Except, again, people swear when angry in Discovery, SNW, Lower Decks and Picard.
Yeah. I mean - It’s still clearly a retcon. I don’t disagree by any means.
I just like to allow that the 20th century man’s reaction is substantially different enough from any 24th century norm to support Spock’s confusion.
Our conversation led me to this, which I hope you will enjoy as much as I did-
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Profanity
If you have fun watching it, then go for it. The whole Shatner focused thing makes a lot of sense. He would setup shots in minutes instead of the industry norm of hours just for that focus.
You’re thinking of Star Trek V, which Shatner directed and is, indeed, a stinker of a film.
This is Star Trek IV- the one with the whales. Most people consider it one of the best Star Trek films despite its flaws.
Yep… sorry about that. Early morning brain took over.
Happens to the best of us. The fact that there are six TOS movies alone doesn’t help.