Not everywhere. Many places its much more sustainable to make clothes from the animals you are eating and it makes sure that you aren’t wasting any of the life you’ve taken that you need to survive.
True…and you don’t need to live in a house, or use the Internet, or have a bank account, or have a computer/mobile…all things that have caused catastrophic damage to the environment and killed countless animals.
One has to draw a line somewhere- perhaps you shouldn’t be holier than though just because you draw the line at “I don’t want to see the evidence of the death”
Maybe YOU don’t have to eat animals to survive. What a privilege u you have that you live in a place where vegetation can be grown in your area or more likely shipped there cheaply(not free of harm to the environment or people\animals). But your experience is not universal there are places on earth that people live where that is not an option. And some of those people have been living there sustainably for 10s of thousands of years. Not to speak of people who’s body needs meat to live because of some other reason. You can not eat animals and that’s fine but it doesn’t replace the science of how to stop environmental damage.
Obviously if someone needs to eat meat to live I’m not going to object. And people living sustainably and not just supporting the animal ag industry are also off the hook in my books.
But in regards to your weird vegetation stuff, I hope you’re aware that the livestock are raised on vegetation and will typically consume more calories of feed than they provide with meat? This is a large part of why the Amazon is being deforested, it’s to feed livestock, not vegans. The science on how to stop environmental damage is pretty clear on that one.
Vegans in western cultures have access to dietary supplements derived from non-animal sources. That’s basically impossible without access to modern industrial food processes.
If we’re talking about cultures without ready access to plant fibers for clothes, then they’re not going to have vegan supplements, either.
Let me guess, you’re a westerner with access to plant-based dietary supplements? I suppose you’re vegan then? If not, you must be part of some indigenous people.
Wool is one of those natural fibers that can be harvested without harming the animal. Even if you end up eating the goat/sheep, it can provide a few coats of wool before hand.
Growing cattle has also had a massive impact on the environment. And you often need more land for animal based materials because you both need land for the animals and the land to grow food for the animals. With cotton at least you just need land for the cotton.
It is more resource and space efficient than cotton, and can grow in a wide variety of climates. It grows kind of like, idk, a weed. It can be made into comfortable textiles and used in the same application are cotton. Robust plant. The difference between hemp and cannabis is the THC content.
Hemp and also linen are even harder to grow than cotton, though much of it is due to not as advanced machinery for harvesting and processing. Hemp also sucks as a material for clothing, to make it wearable you have to treat it quite heavily or it’s scratchy AF.
Taking production out of the equation linen is the best material of the three: Much better moisture regulation than cotton, only real downside is that it crinkles easily but it also crinkles elegantly so wear it with pride and you’ll be fine.
Production-wise the best alternative right now is modal, that is, basically, synthesised cotton, raw material is anything that contains cellulose. Nasty chemicals are involved but in modern processes it’s all closed-loop, the nasty stuff all stays within the factory.
Oh, one often overlooked factor: Seams. Modal is better than cotton at being yarn because the cellulose fibres are much longer but nothing compares to the likes of polyester when it comes to not coming apart. I don’t think there’s an alternative yet, either you use polyester and make the whole garment non-biodegradable or you use modal and live with the reduced durability. Though one idea would be to aggressively get rid of seams, you can knit yarn into any shape whatsoever. Wait: Silica thread is a thing. Usually only used for extreme applications (think firefighter gear), also uses some chemicals to make it usable in sewing machines and it just won’t ever hold a knot so when it comes apart it comes apart completely, but it’s essentially fancy stone, just like computer chips: Doesn’t really biodegrade but it doesn’t matter that it doesn’t, either.
Another overlooked factor is stretch. There’s no natural alternative to elasthan, so no yoga pants or stretch jeans. Tons of stuff nowadays contains elasthan, often just a bit for a tiny bit of stretch simply because it’s more comfortable.
Why is this always brought up, stop spreading this. Animals usually are not fed grain unless it’s harvesting time. We also do not grow food just to feed them. The grain we feed animals is shit you cannot eat. It’s roots/stalks/stems/bad/rotted plant matter. It’s the leftovers from the greens we can consume. Most animals also are raised on land that is not suitable for crops, rocky/hilly/weak topsoil land.
Mate, I have three chickens at home and I feed them a scratch mix that is mostly grain. I think you’re talking out of your arse, and I strongly doubt you have any actual animal husbandry experience.
Well it’s both. Many animals can eat a very wide diverse mixture of foods. Like cows, they can eat grass, but also hay or grains. So it could be that you’re both right.
Chickens were classically considered food for the rich because they eat grain. They are an exception among livestock in that regard. Talk about animal husbandry.
Animals products are less efficient for a simple energy reason. Animals produce heat which radiates away as lost energy, and they rely on consuming autotrophs. All life gets its energy from the sun, we as animals get it one or two down the food chain from plants or other animals (which are also eating plants). Animal-based products are simply less efficient.
You can think this all you want, but you cannot consume what they do, you also cannot grow crops usually where livestock are raised. Crops need a pretty flat chunk of land, livestock don’t.
Except for the deforestation needed to increase pasture area and for growing more feed. Destroying habitats and pushing indigenous people further from their homes. Meat on a large scale doesn’t work because it is energetically less efficient. Farmed animals produce waste products like methane which are large contributors to global warming. Even if the land used by livestock was completely unusable for other purposes, they would still be polluting the environment through eutrophication and destroying locally endangered species.
Everything you just said…is the same shit that happens for plants as well. Deforestation isn’t something that happens only with livestock. It also only really exists now in poor countries for people who are trying to survive by any means. You also are assuming that plants don’t use nutrients from the soil or that the ground has to be fertilized or sprayed with pesticides or that large machinery has to be used to harvest it.
You forget that the food required to make even small quantities of meat is much higher than just growing plants for human. Better to directly eat the energy produced by autotrophs. Deforestation doesn’t happen in “poor countries” just so people can survive, it happens because corporations lobby the government of corrupt countries like Brazil so they can destroy habitats for feed and pastures.
Meat production is a simple maths problem to see that wasted energy used by livestock (to survive and grow) is lost energy.
Ok but we use twice as much land to grow animal feed than we do human food and it has all the same drawbacks. And then the meat we get still only provides 18% of our calories.
Why it is true that you’ll graze non-butcher animals on the leftover stalks and such, we absolutely finish beef and pork on grain and a big portion of the grain harvest is for animal feed.
Almost all of the grain we feed is what I just explained. All of that is ground up and a binding agent (usually molasses) is applied. We do not grow crops just to feed to animals, it’s a complete waste of land. We grow crops for our consumption and use first and whats left over is turned into grain to feed to animals we then butcher and eat.
Commercial poultry production heavily relies on grain – typically corn. It’s the primary ingredient in the processed feed overwhelmingly used for commercial poultry, as seen in this typical mix.
86% of the global livestock feed intake in dry matter consists of feed materials that are not currently edible for humans
But it also makes an important contribution to food security through the provision of high-quality protein and a variety of micronutrients – e.g. vitamin A, vitamin B-12, riboflavin, calcium, iron and zinc – that can be locally difficult to obtain in adequate quantities from plant-source foods alone
Just because they feed corn doesn’t mean it’s edible to humans, a lot of the corn grown is left to dry on the plant and then harvested. We do this so we don’t end up with another famine. Not saying corn is what we should be growing for that, but it’s a very easy and hardy plant.
Food is grown specifically to feed livestock though, it would be a pretty weird trophic pyramid for them to survive on our waste unless you went back to a time where people killed their one pig for the year and salted it away. In our country, the land degradation from clearing hill country for grazing has led to enormous biodiversity loss and a self-fufilling prophecy of eroded weak topsoil that people claim isn’t good for anything else (though it could still be rewilded and in other cultures and times would be terraced and swaled to support plant crops).
Please provide a source that shows that we grow crops directly for livestock consumption in a meaningful amount. So far no one has shown anything that states otherwise.
Over a third of crops are grown to feed livestock, and that’s if you’re not counting pasture as a crop, which it absolutely is - arguably our first solar powered factory floor. Even areas that were grazed in the past have had the relative proportion of native flora and fauna severely reduced to minimal levels through introduced grasses and overgrazing. To get a feel for land use against calorie production, you could have a browse through https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/feeding-9-billion/ for an overview.
But it’s not, these papers and studies all assume the land that cattle graze on is suitable for crops. You cannot grow crops on a massive hill properly. It’s why the all the states that are flat usually have crops grown and all the hilly/dryer states raise livestock. No one is saying livestock can fully replace plants, but to many think we can replace everything with plants only. This is complete junk science.
This has nothing to do with grazing land. This is crop suitable land being used to grow crops that is then fed to livestock. There are no assumptions being made and it is not junk science, you’re just not very good at reading.
Except it’s not, we are not growing crops just to feed to animals, as I’ve explained multiple times now, grain is created from the shit we cannot consume. Why is this so difficult to understand?
It’s difficult because it’s just very untrue and wrong. This is very widely documented, grains are absolutely grown just to feed animals. The majority of corn and soy in the US is grown to feed animals. I’m not sure why you’re so insistent on something that can so easily be looked up, you don’t even need vegan sources, the animal ag industry reports this stuff.
100 % or this chart is made up of food we got by intentionally crushing land for the meat Industry. It shows how the food we feed livestock is spread across different feeding sources, not the land uses by said food source.
I poated it because the person I replied to insisted that most of the food animals are fed is just the uneatable byproduct of agricultural products made for humans. This chats shows its defnetily not the main source used to feed animals, as it only makes up about 5 %
I mean you can make leather from all kinds of skins. And there’s one… animal… that we have a particularly large amount of on earth and we regularly have to get rid of a significnat number of deceased of without currently re-using their skin. Hrm… cool idea for an industrialist horror movie…
This. We need to get back to repairable shoes and patching clothes. It’s fine to keep a “good set” that doesn’t have patches, but we wear clothes like no humans before us. It wasn’t uncommon to see patched clothes just 60 years ago.
But one could also use linen, hemp, ramie/urtica/nettle. However, they are more complicated to process and as the results are textiles, they are not windproof or water repellent.
Organic and recycled cotton is a lot better, and hemp and linen are also pretty good. And if you’re worried about hazardous pesticides the majority is used while growing feed for animals.
Even as a cheeky vegan I find it hard to disagree with you on this one. Leather will absolutely last a lifetime if taken care of. I think you can still get close, there’s a lot of very durable upholstery fabrics for instance but you’re likely making other trade offs.
I mean we can also make long lasting clothes out of natural fibers without hurting animals.
Not everywhere. Many places its much more sustainable to make clothes from the animals you are eating and it makes sure that you aren’t wasting any of the life you’ve taken that you need to survive.
You also don’t need to eat the animals to survive.
True…and you don’t need to live in a house, or use the Internet, or have a bank account, or have a computer/mobile…all things that have caused catastrophic damage to the environment and killed countless animals.
One has to draw a line somewhere- perhaps you shouldn’t be holier than though just because you draw the line at “I don’t want to see the evidence of the death”
I mean I just said a fact, sorry if I upset you.
Just a very common case of leftists being anti-exploitation until it involves reconsidering what goes on their plates.
Maybe YOU don’t have to eat animals to survive. What a privilege u you have that you live in a place where vegetation can be grown in your area or more likely shipped there cheaply(not free of harm to the environment or people\animals). But your experience is not universal there are places on earth that people live where that is not an option. And some of those people have been living there sustainably for 10s of thousands of years. Not to speak of people who’s body needs meat to live because of some other reason. You can not eat animals and that’s fine but it doesn’t replace the science of how to stop environmental damage.
Obviously if someone needs to eat meat to live I’m not going to object. And people living sustainably and not just supporting the animal ag industry are also off the hook in my books.
But in regards to your weird vegetation stuff, I hope you’re aware that the livestock are raised on vegetation and will typically consume more calories of feed than they provide with meat? This is a large part of why the Amazon is being deforested, it’s to feed livestock, not vegans. The science on how to stop environmental damage is pretty clear on that one.
It’s more sustainable to eat the animals you make clothes from.
No evangelizing
Is that a rule here??
Go vegan.
Vegans in western cultures have access to dietary supplements derived from non-animal sources. That’s basically impossible without access to modern industrial food processes.
If we’re talking about cultures without ready access to plant fibers for clothes, then they’re not going to have vegan supplements, either.
Let me guess, you’re a westerner with access to plant-based dietary supplements? I suppose you’re vegan then? If not, you must be part of some indigenous people.
Do you really think that is how logic is supposed to work?
Logic? No. Sarcasm? Yes.
I do.
I’m privileged enough to have a choice in that regard, haven’t eaten any animals in months. Sometimes I’m a naughty boi and eat some chicken tho.
Chicken coat get
Wool is one of those natural fibers that can be harvested without harming the animal. Even if you end up eating the goat/sheep, it can provide a few coats of wool before hand.
You can indeed. But growing cotton has already resulted in environmental changes beyond my comprehension.
I guess the first step should be to adapt a habit of clothes repair
Growing cattle has also had a massive impact on the environment. And you often need more land for animal based materials because you both need land for the animals and the land to grow food for the animals. With cotton at least you just need land for the cotton.
I dare you to travel to Uzbekistan and see for yourself what’s needed to grow cotton for the whole region.
Then maybe not cotton and instead hemp
This. Y’all should checkout Saintdrew’s discussion on crops
I know nothing about growing hemp, but it sounds like what a stoner would say
It is more resource and space efficient than cotton, and can grow in a wide variety of climates. It grows kind of like, idk, a weed. It can be made into comfortable textiles and used in the same application are cotton. Robust plant. The difference between hemp and cannabis is the THC content.
Hemp and also linen are even harder to grow than cotton, though much of it is due to not as advanced machinery for harvesting and processing. Hemp also sucks as a material for clothing, to make it wearable you have to treat it quite heavily or it’s scratchy AF.
Taking production out of the equation linen is the best material of the three: Much better moisture regulation than cotton, only real downside is that it crinkles easily but it also crinkles elegantly so wear it with pride and you’ll be fine.
Production-wise the best alternative right now is modal, that is, basically, synthesised cotton, raw material is anything that contains cellulose. Nasty chemicals are involved but in modern processes it’s all closed-loop, the nasty stuff all stays within the factory.
Oh, one often overlooked factor: Seams. Modal is better than cotton at being yarn because the cellulose fibres are much longer but nothing compares to the likes of polyester when it comes to not coming apart. I don’t think there’s an alternative yet, either you use polyester and make the whole garment non-biodegradable or you use modal and live with the reduced durability. Though one idea would be to aggressively get rid of seams, you can knit yarn into any shape whatsoever. Wait: Silica thread is a thing. Usually only used for extreme applications (think firefighter gear), also uses some chemicals to make it usable in sewing machines and it just won’t ever hold a knot so when it comes apart it comes apart completely, but it’s essentially fancy stone, just like computer chips: Doesn’t really biodegrade but it doesn’t matter that it doesn’t, either.
Another overlooked factor is stretch. There’s no natural alternative to elasthan, so no yoga pants or stretch jeans. Tons of stuff nowadays contains elasthan, often just a bit for a tiny bit of stretch simply because it’s more comfortable.
Why is this always brought up, stop spreading this. Animals usually are not fed grain unless it’s harvesting time. We also do not grow food just to feed them. The grain we feed animals is shit you cannot eat. It’s roots/stalks/stems/bad/rotted plant matter. It’s the leftovers from the greens we can consume. Most animals also are raised on land that is not suitable for crops, rocky/hilly/weak topsoil land.
Mate, I have three chickens at home and I feed them a scratch mix that is mostly grain. I think you’re talking out of your arse, and I strongly doubt you have any actual animal husbandry experience.
Your chickens are definitely on a different diet than factory farmed ones, haha
Sure, it’s different to cage hens. But it’s the exact kind of feed that’s used for free range farm chooks.
Edit: I literally get it at a farm supply store because it’s way cheaper than a pet shop.
Well it’s both. Many animals can eat a very wide diverse mixture of foods. Like cows, they can eat grass, but also hay or grains. So it could be that you’re both right.
I’m not an expert though.
Chickens were classically considered food for the rich because they eat grain. They are an exception among livestock in that regard. Talk about animal husbandry.
And it’s almost like in the modern era, we do this with other animals. For the rich still. https://www.grainfedbeef.com.au/
Animals products are less efficient for a simple energy reason. Animals produce heat which radiates away as lost energy, and they rely on consuming autotrophs. All life gets its energy from the sun, we as animals get it one or two down the food chain from plants or other animals (which are also eating plants). Animal-based products are simply less efficient.
You can think this all you want, but you cannot consume what they do, you also cannot grow crops usually where livestock are raised. Crops need a pretty flat chunk of land, livestock don’t.
Except for the deforestation needed to increase pasture area and for growing more feed. Destroying habitats and pushing indigenous people further from their homes. Meat on a large scale doesn’t work because it is energetically less efficient. Farmed animals produce waste products like methane which are large contributors to global warming. Even if the land used by livestock was completely unusable for other purposes, they would still be polluting the environment through eutrophication and destroying locally endangered species.
Everything you just said…is the same shit that happens for plants as well. Deforestation isn’t something that happens only with livestock. It also only really exists now in poor countries for people who are trying to survive by any means. You also are assuming that plants don’t use nutrients from the soil or that the ground has to be fertilized or sprayed with pesticides or that large machinery has to be used to harvest it.
You forget that the food required to make even small quantities of meat is much higher than just growing plants for human. Better to directly eat the energy produced by autotrophs. Deforestation doesn’t happen in “poor countries” just so people can survive, it happens because corporations lobby the government of corrupt countries like Brazil so they can destroy habitats for feed and pastures.
Meat production is a simple maths problem to see that wasted energy used by livestock (to survive and grow) is lost energy.
Ok but we use twice as much land to grow animal feed than we do human food and it has all the same drawbacks. And then the meat we get still only provides 18% of our calories.
Why it is true that you’ll graze non-butcher animals on the leftover stalks and such, we absolutely finish beef and pork on grain and a big portion of the grain harvest is for animal feed.
Almost all of the grain we feed is what I just explained. All of that is ground up and a binding agent (usually molasses) is applied. We do not grow crops just to feed to animals, it’s a complete waste of land. We grow crops for our consumption and use first and whats left over is turned into grain to feed to animals we then butcher and eat.
I can only speak to the USA, but in my area the number one crop in this area is dent corn and soya. Of the corn grown here 40% goes into ethanol production, and 36% is used for animal feed.
Commercial poultry production heavily relies on grain – typically corn. It’s the primary ingredient in the processed feed overwhelmingly used for commercial poultry, as seen in this typical mix.
We absolutely grow crops specifically to feed livestock. And this is ignoring the 52 million acres used for alfalfa and hay-grass.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013
Just because they feed corn doesn’t mean it’s edible to humans, a lot of the corn grown is left to dry on the plant and then harvested. We do this so we don’t end up with another famine. Not saying corn is what we should be growing for that, but it’s a very easy and hardy plant.
Food is grown specifically to feed livestock though, it would be a pretty weird trophic pyramid for them to survive on our waste unless you went back to a time where people killed their one pig for the year and salted it away. In our country, the land degradation from clearing hill country for grazing has led to enormous biodiversity loss and a self-fufilling prophecy of eroded weak topsoil that people claim isn’t good for anything else (though it could still be rewilded and in other cultures and times would be terraced and swaled to support plant crops).
??? But it’s not, we do not grow crops for livestock in any meaningful amounts. It’s miniscule what is grown to feed livestock only.
Stop making stuff up, please. Idk what you do on your farm but globally we absolutely grow a lot of food for animals.
Please provide a source that shows that we grow crops directly for livestock consumption in a meaningful amount. So far no one has shown anything that states otherwise.
Over a third of crops are grown to feed livestock, and that’s if you’re not counting pasture as a crop, which it absolutely is - arguably our first solar powered factory floor. Even areas that were grazed in the past have had the relative proportion of native flora and fauna severely reduced to minimal levels through introduced grasses and overgrazing. To get a feel for land use against calorie production, you could have a browse through https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/feeding-9-billion/ for an overview.
It’s brought up because it’s true.
research
edit: link doesn’t appear to be working, but it’s the paper by Emily Cassidy called ‘redefining agricultural yields’
But it’s not, these papers and studies all assume the land that cattle graze on is suitable for crops. You cannot grow crops on a massive hill properly. It’s why the all the states that are flat usually have crops grown and all the hilly/dryer states raise livestock. No one is saying livestock can fully replace plants, but to many think we can replace everything with plants only. This is complete junk science.
This has nothing to do with grazing land. This is crop suitable land being used to grow crops that is then fed to livestock. There are no assumptions being made and it is not junk science, you’re just not very good at reading.
Except it’s not, we are not growing crops just to feed to animals, as I’ve explained multiple times now, grain is created from the shit we cannot consume. Why is this so difficult to understand?
It’s difficult because it’s just very untrue and wrong. This is very widely documented, grains are absolutely grown just to feed animals. The majority of corn and soy in the US is grown to feed animals. I’m not sure why you’re so insistent on something that can so easily be looked up, you don’t even need vegan sources, the animal ag industry reports this stuff.
What you say is true for 5% of animal feed globaly.
That 46% is land whose biodiversity and ecosystems have been intentionally crushed for the meat industry.
100 % or this chart is made up of food we got by intentionally crushing land for the meat Industry. It shows how the food we feed livestock is spread across different feeding sources, not the land uses by said food source.
I poated it because the person I replied to insisted that most of the food animals are fed is just the uneatable byproduct of agricultural products made for humans. This chats shows its defnetily not the main source used to feed animals, as it only makes up about 5 %
Beef is fed (extra) soy. A lot of porc as well
I mean you can make leather from all kinds of skins. And there’s one… animal… that we have a particularly large amount of on earth and we regularly have to get rid of a significnat number of deceased of without currently re-using their skin. Hrm… cool idea for an industrialist horror movie…
This. We need to get back to repairable shoes and patching clothes. It’s fine to keep a “good set” that doesn’t have patches, but we wear clothes like no humans before us. It wasn’t uncommon to see patched clothes just 60 years ago.
Cotton is often grown with large amounts of pesticides and uses enourmous amounts of fibers.
And cow feed is also grown with tons of pesticides and you need much more of it for less tissue at the end.
I have hard time seeing clothing with a bigger environmental than leather.
Of course, but there are more options than leather, like bamboo, linen, and lyocell.
But one could also use linen, hemp, ramie/urtica/nettle. However, they are more complicated to process and as the results are textiles, they are not windproof or water repellent.
Organic and recycled cotton is a lot better, and hemp and linen are also pretty good. And if you’re worried about hazardous pesticides the majority is used while growing feed for animals.
The tanning process is no joke either.
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Very few materials compare to the durability of animal leather. When you need leather, you need leather.
Even as a cheeky vegan I find it hard to disagree with you on this one. Leather will absolutely last a lifetime if taken care of. I think you can still get close, there’s a lot of very durable upholstery fabrics for instance but you’re likely making other trade offs.