Pretending Israel’s problems, and the problem that is Israel in its current form, can be solved by new elections is no effort at all. It’s the Democrats’ comfort blanket. Everything will be fine if only the right people are in charge. Look away, no structural problems to see here.
Israel in its current form has no more legitimacy than Apartheid South Africa had. I lived through that struggle, with right-wing politicians bolstering the apartheid regime and sending arms as ordinary people protested it. We eventually won that battle and eventually we will win this one too.
FWIW, there is no mirror image here. There is one two-state solution and two one-state solutions.
The two-state solution has been made impossible by Israeli settlement activity (which picked up substantially during the Oslo negotiations and has continued at a furious pace ever since).
The two one-state solutions are: a single, secular democratic state with equal rights for all its people and equal right to return for Palestinians; or a single Jewish ethno-state with Palestinians imprisoned in occupied enclaves with no access to the outside world other than what their imprisoners agree to.
The latter one-state solution is what the Israeli right are trying to achieve and, as with Apartheid South Africa, the global right (and the arms industry) are rooting for them to succeed. The rest of us have to fight it, as we did with South Africa, and also East Timor, and are struggling to do for Myanmar, the Congo, Somalia and East Turkmenistan. And would for North Korea, if there was any leverage available.
Israel does exist and will continue to exist but it has absolutely no right to exist in its current form.
Kind of ironic how blind Lemmy is to the possibility of a federal constitutional solution to the problem. Nobody who would really want the conflict to end is allowed into the conversation.
Yes, the cause of most of this is the hardliners that put Bibi in power and keeps him there to this day. I would question the apartheid moniker since Israel is fairly diverse. It has something like 40% Arab population who also serve in the IDF. It has the most diverse populations in that part of the world.
The Arabs who serve in the military, other than Jewish Arabs, are Bedouin and Druze, whose ‘community leaders’ chose to participate in conscription because military service is fundamental to success in Israeli society. Palestinians often regard them as the worst, not because of a sense of betrayal but because Arabs in the IDF often feel the need to prove which side they’re on. The Israeli refuseniks are, for the most part, able to refuse because their family is willing and able to support them economically.
Palestinian-Israelis do not (and cannot) serve in the military, along with the most extreme in the settler-movement ( a sore point for many Israelis, who are forced to do national service to keep these extremists safe in occupied territory).
The apartheid charge is (largely) based on the different laws and rights which apply to citizens of Israel vs Palestinians under occupation. Israel does treat its Arab citizens and, especially, East Jerusalemites (who have residency but not citizenship) , differently in many ways. But, even if you insist on ignoring the racist minutiae of Israeli law, you don’t get to say they’re responsible only for their citizens (+/- permanent residents). They’re maintaining an apartheid system in the Occupied Territories (and East Jerusalem) and you don’t get to pretend that this somehow doesn’t count
Israelis are Israeli. Palestinians are Palestinian. There is Palestinian law and Israeli law. Two separate places, much like any other places in this world.
Where in the world are the state of Palestine’s sovereign rights recognized? Do they have control of their own borders? What is the name of their ambassador to the UN?
Riyad Mansour. A better example would be “who controls Palestinians’ birth register and therefore who is legally a Palestinian?” Or “who controls the currency and decides the monetary policy for Palestinians?”. Not to mention water, electricity, gas, communications, movement, even whether or not Palestinians get to sleep on any given night.
There is no Palestinian state. Israel is the (illegal) occupying power and has been since 1967, with a stated intent for the Occupation to be permanent. The system is closely equivalent to South African apartheid, with genocidal intent on top.
Words have meaning. Israel cannot maintain a permanent Occupation, controlling everything and everyone entering or exiting the Occupied Territories, and also pretend that Palestinians are responsible for their own wellbeing. That’s not how it works and if you were under the impression that it is, you have some reading to do.
Yeah, you’re going to have to expand on that because it looks like a denial of reality. Are you under the impression that Israel is keeping Israelis under occupation?
There are many older Israelis who regard themselves as Palestinian Jews (“I didn’t come to Israel, Israel came to me”). There are many Israelis living in the Occupied Territories, and many of the non-militant amongst them say they would choose to become Palestinians in the event of a two state solution.
I’m not sure if you know these people exist but you also seem to be having trouble acknowledging that Palestinians exist and are the ones who are living under occupation and that is … a bit of a headfuck. Can you explain yourself a little more clearly?
This has the same problem as the two state solution - the settlements have stolen Palestinian land. If you can’t resolve that issue for the two state solution, it’s still a problem for 3+.
So fucking what, that can be resolved diplomatically at the first levantine congress. I’ll do the writing if they want. The two state solution fails to create a venue at which to resolve these problems and Israel will not submit to UN authority except by force, and Palestine does not have a seat at the table with the UN. I seriously think it’s time for the United States to intervene militarily.
Since israel is occupying the west bank militarily and seizing land there. And people in the west bank can’t vote…
It’s a full on apartheid. Every major NGO declares israel an apartheid.
Also it’s so bad that Arab israelis have fled israel out of fear of persecution. One has recently won a court case in the UK on the grounds that israel is an apartheid persecuting it’s Arab citizens.
The Wesr Bank has their own government separate from Gaza. Palestinian security forces in the West Bank have retained limited security relations with the Israeli counterparts in the IDF and Shin Bet since re-establishment of relations in 2005. The parties cooperate on prevention of Hamas and Islamic Jihad activity in the West Bank, which is considered a threat by both parties.
With attention focused on its contentious judicial overhaul, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government has quietly taken unprecedented steps toward cementing Israel’s control over the occupied West Bank — perhaps permanently.
Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a leader of the settlement movement, assumed new powers over the occupied territory in his coalition agreement with Netanyahu. Smotrich moved swiftly to approve thousands of new settlement homes, legalize previously unauthorized wildcat outposts and make it more difficult for Palestinians to build homes and move about.
As the first government minister to oversee civilian life in the West Bank, his role amounts to a recognition that Israel’s 56-year military occupation is not temporary but permanent, observers say.
“everything will be fine if only the right people are in charge”.
You call it the democrats blanket but you don’t even understand what it means. You just assume the opposing opinion to yours can be summed up to one line.
What democrats do say is that you certainly can’t do anything with the wrong people in charge. Especially in the US where the only thing the last GOP president did is undo whatever the guy who laughed at him did. Oh and give enormous tax cuts to the rich while cutting in “useless” social programs like SCHOOL LUNCHES AND CLEAN WATER.
But I mean the change is certainly going to have to come from inside Israel, right? A pretty good place to start is getting the right-wing nationalist who’s been in power for like 20 years, and isn’t even that popular there, and under corruption charges out.
Exactly the same arguments applied to Ariel Sharon (who was the malignant force in power 20 years ago). Getting rid of him made little difference.
The Occupation demands resistance (and the right to resist it is enshrined in international law). That resistance, and the need for Israel to maintain such an enormous military force that it requires universal conscription and every adult male to serve in the reserves, keeps Israelis fearful. And fear is what triggers support for authoritarianism. And, of course Aliyah tends to attract the most extreme authoritarians, keeping the authoritarian-inclined proportion of the population relatively high.
They’re not going to stop electing genocidal maniacs because those genocidal maniacs create the fear that causes a substantial proportion of the population to vote for them. They never win a majority but, under Israel’s electoral system, they don’t have to. All governments are coalitions and it is very difficult to put together a coalition without some of the more extremist parties involved (whether they are welcome or not). And those small extremist parties can (and do) bring the government down any time they feel like it.
Pretending Israel’s problems, and the problem that is Israel in its current form, can be solved by new elections is no effort at all. It’s the Democrats’ comfort blanket. Everything will be fine if only the right people are in charge. Look away, no structural problems to see here.
Yes, Israel’s problem is that it exists at all, to hear some people tell it.
This is a majority leader of the US Senate and also a Jew saying this, not just a Democrat
Israel in its current form has no more legitimacy than Apartheid South Africa had. I lived through that struggle, with right-wing politicians bolstering the apartheid regime and sending arms as ordinary people protested it. We eventually won that battle and eventually we will win this one too.
FWIW, there is no mirror image here. There is one two-state solution and two one-state solutions.
The two-state solution has been made impossible by Israeli settlement activity (which picked up substantially during the Oslo negotiations and has continued at a furious pace ever since).
The two one-state solutions are: a single, secular democratic state with equal rights for all its people and equal right to return for Palestinians; or a single Jewish ethno-state with Palestinians imprisoned in occupied enclaves with no access to the outside world other than what their imprisoners agree to.
The latter one-state solution is what the Israeli right are trying to achieve and, as with Apartheid South Africa, the global right (and the arms industry) are rooting for them to succeed. The rest of us have to fight it, as we did with South Africa, and also East Timor, and are struggling to do for Myanmar, the Congo, Somalia and East Turkmenistan. And would for North Korea, if there was any leverage available.
Israel does exist and will continue to exist but it has absolutely no right to exist in its current form.
Kind of ironic how blind Lemmy is to the possibility of a federal constitutional solution to the problem. Nobody who would really want the conflict to end is allowed into the conversation.
Yes, the cause of most of this is the hardliners that put Bibi in power and keeps him there to this day. I would question the apartheid moniker since Israel is fairly diverse. It has something like 40% Arab population who also serve in the IDF. It has the most diverse populations in that part of the world.
The Arabs who serve in the military, other than Jewish Arabs, are Bedouin and Druze, whose ‘community leaders’ chose to participate in conscription because military service is fundamental to success in Israeli society. Palestinians often regard them as the worst, not because of a sense of betrayal but because Arabs in the IDF often feel the need to prove which side they’re on. The Israeli refuseniks are, for the most part, able to refuse because their family is willing and able to support them economically.
Palestinian-Israelis do not (and cannot) serve in the military, along with the most extreme in the settler-movement ( a sore point for many Israelis, who are forced to do national service to keep these extremists safe in occupied territory).
The apartheid charge is (largely) based on the different laws and rights which apply to citizens of Israel vs Palestinians under occupation. Israel does treat its Arab citizens and, especially, East Jerusalemites (who have residency but not citizenship) , differently in many ways. But, even if you insist on ignoring the racist minutiae of Israeli law, you don’t get to say they’re responsible only for their citizens (+/- permanent residents). They’re maintaining an apartheid system in the Occupied Territories (and East Jerusalem) and you don’t get to pretend that this somehow doesn’t count
Israelis are Israeli. Palestinians are Palestinian. There is Palestinian law and Israeli law. Two separate places, much like any other places in this world.
Where in the world are the state of Palestine’s sovereign rights recognized? Do they have control of their own borders? What is the name of their ambassador to the UN?
Riyad Mansour. A better example would be “who controls Palestinians’ birth register and therefore who is legally a Palestinian?” Or “who controls the currency and decides the monetary policy for Palestinians?”. Not to mention water, electricity, gas, communications, movement, even whether or not Palestinians get to sleep on any given night.
Thus the 2 state solution.
There is no Palestinian state. Israel is the (illegal) occupying power and has been since 1967, with a stated intent for the Occupation to be permanent. The system is closely equivalent to South African apartheid, with genocidal intent on top.
Words have meaning. Israel cannot maintain a permanent Occupation, controlling everything and everyone entering or exiting the Occupied Territories, and also pretend that Palestinians are responsible for their own wellbeing. That’s not how it works and if you were under the impression that it is, you have some reading to do.
There are no Israeli in Palestine. They were forcibly removed by Israel years ago. There was no occupation. Words have meaning.
Yeah, you’re going to have to expand on that because it looks like a denial of reality. Are you under the impression that Israel is keeping Israelis under occupation?
There are many older Israelis who regard themselves as Palestinian Jews (“I didn’t come to Israel, Israel came to me”). There are many Israelis living in the Occupied Territories, and many of the non-militant amongst them say they would choose to become Palestinians in the event of a two state solution.
I’m not sure if you know these people exist but you also seem to be having trouble acknowledging that Palestinians exist and are the ones who are living under occupation and that is … a bit of a headfuck. Can you explain yourself a little more clearly?
Under Israeli Occupation and 50 years of dispossession Palestinians are denied civil rights and subject to Military Court
At the mercy of Settler Violence, Torture and Abuse in Interrogations, have No freedom of movement, and also denied Water stolen and extorted by the occupying forces.
Palestinian Labor is also heavily exploited as they have no workers rights either: Haaretz, MEE, 972, CMEC
A 3+ state solution with a federal union of independent lower states for Israel and Palestine would actually solve the problem. Broaden your horizons.
This has the same problem as the two state solution - the settlements have stolen Palestinian land. If you can’t resolve that issue for the two state solution, it’s still a problem for 3+.
So fucking what, that can be resolved diplomatically at the first levantine congress. I’ll do the writing if they want. The two state solution fails to create a venue at which to resolve these problems and Israel will not submit to UN authority except by force, and Palestine does not have a seat at the table with the UN. I seriously think it’s time for the United States to intervene militarily.
Since israel is occupying the west bank militarily and seizing land there. And people in the west bank can’t vote…
It’s a full on apartheid. Every major NGO declares israel an apartheid.
Also it’s so bad that Arab israelis have fled israel out of fear of persecution. One has recently won a court case in the UK on the grounds that israel is an apartheid persecuting it’s Arab citizens.
Palestinian citizen of Israel granted UK asylum in case said to be unprecedented
The Wesr Bank has their own government separate from Gaza. Palestinian security forces in the West Bank have retained limited security relations with the Israeli counterparts in the IDF and Shin Bet since re-establishment of relations in 2005. The parties cooperate on prevention of Hamas and Islamic Jihad activity in the West Bank, which is considered a threat by both parties.
This sure suggests otherwise
Israel’s finance minister now governs the West Bank. Critics see steps toward permanent control
If you really want to know about the government in the west bank, you can go here…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority#:~:text=The Palestinian Authority currently administers,the Hamas Government in Gaza.
Note the mass resignation in February. To my mind, this was clearing the ground for a 2 state solution
That is… Not relevant to what I linked at all…
“everything will be fine if only the right people are in charge”.
You call it the democrats blanket but you don’t even understand what it means. You just assume the opposing opinion to yours can be summed up to one line.
What democrats do say is that you certainly can’t do anything with the wrong people in charge. Especially in the US where the only thing the last GOP president did is undo whatever the guy who laughed at him did. Oh and give enormous tax cuts to the rich while cutting in “useless” social programs like SCHOOL LUNCHES AND CLEAN WATER.
But I mean the change is certainly going to have to come from inside Israel, right? A pretty good place to start is getting the right-wing nationalist who’s been in power for like 20 years, and isn’t even that popular there, and under corruption charges out.
Exactly the same arguments applied to Ariel Sharon (who was the malignant force in power 20 years ago). Getting rid of him made little difference.
The Occupation demands resistance (and the right to resist it is enshrined in international law). That resistance, and the need for Israel to maintain such an enormous military force that it requires universal conscription and every adult male to serve in the reserves, keeps Israelis fearful. And fear is what triggers support for authoritarianism. And, of course Aliyah tends to attract the most extreme authoritarians, keeping the authoritarian-inclined proportion of the population relatively high.
They’re not going to stop electing genocidal maniacs because those genocidal maniacs create the fear that causes a substantial proportion of the population to vote for them. They never win a majority but, under Israel’s electoral system, they don’t have to. All governments are coalitions and it is very difficult to put together a coalition without some of the more extremist parties involved (whether they are welcome or not). And those small extremist parties can (and do) bring the government down any time they feel like it.
I appreciate your thoughtful comment, though it begs the question, “okay, if not that, then what is a viable step 1?” Emphasis on viable.
I don’t believe it is necessary to have a solution in order to critique the current situation. But this is the most useful thing I’ve read recently that addresses your question: What Peace in Northern Ireland Teaches us About ‘Endless’ Conflicts.
Really good article. Thanks for posting that.