We already have fully automatic coffee machines - and they make shit coffee. Adding a robotic arm will not help because it’s not about mechanical control it’s about getting the process right and consistently repeatable. And that can be done without AI if anyone wanted to invest enough money.
Most coffee places use automatic coffee machines, as long as they have good beans the coffee is good. Getting the correct weight of grounds and tamping them down is not a process difficult to automate.
Australian coffee is sublime. Made manually, it’s a profession of pride for many, and in all my travels to many countries, the coffee of Australia has never been bested.
German coffee is made through exact, automated machines, and it’s crap. It’s some of the worst coffee I’ve experienced.
Machine after machine, I’ve tried them all, and I’ve given up.
I don’t know what the human does, but whatever they do that the machine is not doing, makes av huge difference, and no manufacturer has cracked the magic formula yet.
I can’t help but feel like your sampling might be skewed.
Vollautomaten (I. E. Fully automated coffee machines that brew espressos and cappuccinos etc) tend to make worse coffee, I agree. That’s why I don’t use the one in the office.
Having an experienced barista grind you an exactly measured dose fresh for your coffee at a good Café is quite nice, on the other hand.
But that’s nothing to do with Germany or Australia.
Experienced humans know all the variables - roast levels, grind size, water temperature, slight differences in timing depending on exact coffee in question… And more importantly they can apply them intuitively without mentally processing each variable separately.
Machines could do all that but such a machine would need good programming (expensive) and a lot of sensors (expensive).
In the long run machines are cheaper (also don’t take days off nor try to unionize), which is why many companies are looking to automate things with AI or just robots in general.
In assuming that it’s simply impossible for a machine to accurately follow the same process as a person and make quality coffee (in his own subjective judgement), @makingStuffForFun sounds much like wine snob to me.
It already happened 15-20 years ago for 90% of people.
Coffee snobs (myself included) sometimes forget that the vast majority of people just want a cup of brown that makes them feel slightly less like shit.
I went to a donut shop once (sugar isn’t my thing, especially early morning, so yes, once) on my way to work at 3:30am, and ordered a coffee “the color of a plain or egg bagel before toasting” and they actually got my milk ratio spot on.
This was a very long time ago in my early 20s, and I like the coffee flavor more now; I drink coffee in soup bowl cups, which are appx 4cups. I milk and sugar the first cup (1/4 cup whole milk, 1 heaping tbsp sugar) and top off with plain coffee every inch or so as I drink it or it cools, so whatever’s in the first flavor cup is all I use.
I know some people like black coffee, and that’s great for them, but I need to cut the bitter to get the pleasant flavor, and milk and sugar are exactly it. I can do without one or the other, but not both.
I have a pretty bad sweet tooth, so coffee is one of those things I have to drink sparingly, cuz it’s probably 500+ calories before my tongue says it’s potable.
I’ve been making my own ‘milk tea’ lately by adding flavored (usually caramel or hazelnut) coffee creamer to black tea; and since the tea is way less bitter than coffee I go through a lot less creamer, but it scratches that same itch.
I think I can unite tea and coffee snobs to fight under one banner by presenting as their common enemy lol.
I’ve had the opposite experience, my regular coffee shop uses an automatic machine. They have the best espresso in the area, it might help that they roast their own beans.
You are objectively wrong about coffee. You are leaving out a whole world of variables that easily effect the coffee and are the difference between a bad coffee shop and a great one. Water quality, water temperature, grind size, grind consistency, tamp pressure, bed consistency are all huge and we haven’t even gotten to roasting the beans, dialing in an espresso machine for a certain bean, etc…
Most coffee shops use automatic machines for their drip coffee and nothing else
I’ve never been in a coffee shop without an automatic/one-touch espresso machine. The last one I tried - a place that roasts their own beans and offers a range of classes and Specialty Coffee of America certifications - I asked if they could make me a “bad” espresso, and they basically said, “Nope, you’re gonna get whatever the button gives us.”
I didn’t leave the other variables out. A human in the loop doesn’t change grind size or consistency. A human in the loop doesn’t change water quality, or temperature. A human in the loop won’t change bean quality.
Tamp pressure is more consistent with automated machines vs humans. It is much easier to dial in a shot for particular beans/roast, you can literally dial it in, that’s why coffee shops use automatic machines. Those machines are not the cheap ones they can cost up to $10k. Over half the coffee shops in my area use automatic machines.
We already have fully automatic coffee machines - and they make shit coffee. Adding a robotic arm will not help because it’s not about mechanical control it’s about getting the process right and consistently repeatable. And that can be done without AI if anyone wanted to invest enough money.
Most coffee places use automatic coffee machines, as long as they have good beans the coffee is good. Getting the correct weight of grounds and tamping them down is not a process difficult to automate.
I’m from Australia, and visit Germany regularly.
Australian coffee is sublime. Made manually, it’s a profession of pride for many, and in all my travels to many countries, the coffee of Australia has never been bested.
German coffee is made through exact, automated machines, and it’s crap. It’s some of the worst coffee I’ve experienced.
Machine after machine, I’ve tried them all, and I’ve given up.
I don’t know what the human does, but whatever they do that the machine is not doing, makes av huge difference, and no manufacturer has cracked the magic formula yet.
I can’t help but feel like your sampling might be skewed.
Vollautomaten (I. E. Fully automated coffee machines that brew espressos and cappuccinos etc) tend to make worse coffee, I agree. That’s why I don’t use the one in the office.
Having an experienced barista grind you an exactly measured dose fresh for your coffee at a good Café is quite nice, on the other hand.
But that’s nothing to do with Germany or Australia.
Experienced humans know all the variables - roast levels, grind size, water temperature, slight differences in timing depending on exact coffee in question… And more importantly they can apply them intuitively without mentally processing each variable separately.
Machines could do all that but such a machine would need good programming (expensive) and a lot of sensors (expensive).
In the long run machines are cheaper (also don’t take days off nor try to unionize), which is why many companies are looking to automate things with AI or just robots in general.
In assuming that it’s simply impossible for a machine to accurately follow the same process as a person and make quality coffee (in his own subjective judgement), @makingStuffForFun sounds much like wine snob to me.
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wine snob
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So you’re saying there’s a chance? How far away do you estimate this threshold is reached? My personal guess would be within 15-20 years.
It already happened 15-20 years ago for 90% of people.
Coffee snobs (myself included) sometimes forget that the vast majority of people just want a cup of brown that makes them feel slightly less like shit.
Cup of tan for me, please.
Coffee to creamer ratio should be approximately 1:1.
:p
I went to a donut shop once (sugar isn’t my thing, especially early morning, so yes, once) on my way to work at 3:30am, and ordered a coffee “the color of a plain or egg bagel before toasting” and they actually got my milk ratio spot on.
This was a very long time ago in my early 20s, and I like the coffee flavor more now; I drink coffee in soup bowl cups, which are appx 4cups. I milk and sugar the first cup (1/4 cup whole milk, 1 heaping tbsp sugar) and top off with plain coffee every inch or so as I drink it or it cools, so whatever’s in the first flavor cup is all I use.
I know some people like black coffee, and that’s great for them, but I need to cut the bitter to get the pleasant flavor, and milk and sugar are exactly it. I can do without one or the other, but not both.
I have a pretty bad sweet tooth, so coffee is one of those things I have to drink sparingly, cuz it’s probably 500+ calories before my tongue says it’s potable.
I’ve been making my own ‘milk tea’ lately by adding flavored (usually caramel or hazelnut) coffee creamer to black tea; and since the tea is way less bitter than coffee I go through a lot less creamer, but it scratches that same itch.
I think I can unite tea and coffee snobs to fight under one banner by presenting as their common enemy lol.
I’ve had the opposite experience, my regular coffee shop uses an automatic machine. They have the best espresso in the area, it might help that they roast their own beans.
You are objectively wrong about coffee. You are leaving out a whole world of variables that easily effect the coffee and are the difference between a bad coffee shop and a great one. Water quality, water temperature, grind size, grind consistency, tamp pressure, bed consistency are all huge and we haven’t even gotten to roasting the beans, dialing in an espresso machine for a certain bean, etc…
Most coffee shops use automatic machines for their drip coffee and nothing else
I’ve never been in a coffee shop without an automatic/one-touch espresso machine. The last one I tried - a place that roasts their own beans and offers a range of classes and Specialty Coffee of America certifications - I asked if they could make me a “bad” espresso, and they basically said, “Nope, you’re gonna get whatever the button gives us.”
I didn’t leave the other variables out. A human in the loop doesn’t change grind size or consistency. A human in the loop doesn’t change water quality, or temperature. A human in the loop won’t change bean quality.
Tamp pressure is more consistent with automated machines vs humans. It is much easier to dial in a shot for particular beans/roast, you can literally dial it in, that’s why coffee shops use automatic machines. Those machines are not the cheap ones they can cost up to $10k. Over half the coffee shops in my area use automatic machines.