I would disagree on the creating complex life. Science has shown very capable but is limited by law as genetic engineering is quite controversial.
I simply find the idea that some exotic far more advanced life has figured out how to build biological remote controlled drones designed to function in their work environment while they themselves stay home sounds more plausible then a huge nomad ship that works entire generations to get somewhere. The first sounds like an eventual phase of any advanced society i can think off. The second sounds like space refugees in a dire situation.
Theres no way to break physics, you can only understand them well enough to apply them in seemingly magical ways.
Genetic engineering can do a lot. However, all laws be damned (which they almost are for many non vertebrate life forms) we are nowhere near creating anything resembling biological drones, or even sure that it’s possible to a useful extent. Also why use biological drones for a long journey instead of mechanical ones that are well suited to long hibernations and high radios environments? Also they can do stuff like send radio signals or take photos which would be useful for exploration. Same as physics, why do aliens get a free pass on what is basically biology magic?
Regarding physics, we have a very good and extensive understanding of the laws of physics. Thermodynamics and other rules of motion, speed and energy are very well studied and I don’t think there have been big surprises in a long time. So if aliens are doing what people are claiming the UAPs are doing, they are clearly breaking the laws of physics as we know them, so other explanations are most likely to be true (see the video linked in my other comment).
Saying stuff like “advanced physics is indistinguishable from magic” may be true if we’re talking about the knowledge of the average person and special little magic tricks (superconductors levitating magnets for example), but dismissing fundamental principles like that is just handwaving away any basis of our current understanding of reality and opening the door to wishful thinking and alien magic.
There are multiple theories about how uap are moving the way we perceive it. All outlandish hypotheticals but none are disproven.
My favorites to think about:
manipulation of spacetime: we know this is possible thanks to black holes but we havent figured out how or why yet.
multi-dimensional objects interjects with our space: just like a 3d ball object can appear, change size, and disappear by rolling trough a 2d plane.
advanced understanding and maybe manipulation of a planets electromagnetic field allowing for precise pulling/push of an object: In my head this would require subsurface station or relay points, wouldn’t work in space but with what i’ve seen of human progress we might archive this ourselves in the near future.
About the practicality of bioengineering i disagree that mechanical drones would be superior. They require resources and energy to build and move around. Take a lot of time to design and are rarely capable of doing anything beyond their design scope. A biological lifeforms could be vat grown pretty much at location build for whatever purpose you need. There gonna be on earth? Maybe a set of lungs to get all the free energy from the air and hands to interact with human infrastructure.
The idea that only machines are capable of sending signals and taking photos seems moot as we humans have gotten very close to extracting images straight from the brain and bats having been using echo location forever.
Disagreeing aside. This has been a really cool discussion, we just tackle it from different perspectives, which is ok if not an ideal.
The actual recorded evidence for UAPs needs none of these complicated explanations to be explained by mundane occurrences (see the videos I linked previously).
Growing completely new animals on location would be an enormous feat, especially if you can’t know beforehand what you will be encountering. It still seems easier to me to have a robot Lego set with you that you can just assemble into the shape you need.
I’m not saying that biologicals are unable to send signals (otherwise people couldn’t talk), I’m saying radio signals since they are the kind of signal you need for long distance communication. And extracting images from a brain is probably much worse than taking a photo with something that can be produced by a civilisation that can do this easily.
Yes it has been an interesting and civil discussion, which is nice.
Our current level of this tech is indeed far from real footage reality but still very impressive, there are a few groups working on different angles to properly invent this tech
I actually like to take that hypothetical much further into the potential of streaming consciousness. But then we’re getting in almost pure sci fi terrain. It “sounds” more reasonable for a bio engineered lifeform then a machine to be capable of housing consciousness.
I fully understand if you cant take me serious anymore at that line, but when i am entertaining the idea that aliens are already here then i can only picture them as vastly intellectually superior because i feel like humans have only just scratched the initial surface of our potential and are a very long way from reaching another solar system. (Even with a generational ship)
Absolutely no scientific value beyond this point:
The result of conciouss streaming would be that a superior species would never need to endanger themselves. It would go like this:
An automated vessel travels the galaxy discovering interesting planets, like those containing life.
Some initial samples are collected to make up the environment of the planet and how the local life manages to survive on it.
Local dna of a dominating species is cloned and made compatible with their own.
Intellectually bored aliens stream their consciousness to the bio vessel in a way that we can only refer to as “like full dive vr” interacting with alien worlds and life is a common and mentally stimulating hobby. They get to experience the other world realities with a real body with no downsides or mortality.
Theres some moral dilema with this strain of thoughts like would the bio engineered creature not have a mind of its own.
As a lover of science and the mysteries of the universe it makes sense to me that any society smart enough to to destroy themselves will at some point evolve towards
1 - the levels of required science become not only possible but common knowledge as the universe literally runs out of scientific secrets.
1- quality of life, freedom and luxury reaches the point where space exploration and trying to understand/support other lifeforms becomes the only pastime still yielding meaningfull reward.
There is absolutely nothing from the recorded uaps that points toward this though, i am overall quite sceptical about the more official US disclose and rather focus on patterns in the bigger body of mostly nonsense stories. Some frequent patterns being the appearance of humanoid “greys” wearing no clothes and having no genitals and technology wise no buttons, handles, screens or interfeces. Take only with your most delicious grains of salt. It is friday after all.
It’s a cool idea, I’ll give you that. Kinda like avatar. We’ll have to see if any credible evidence for extraterrestrial life turns up. I’m certainly hoping I’ll see it in my lifetime.
Also why use biological drones for a long journey instead of mechanical ones that are well suited to long hibernations and high radios environments?
That assumes that the biological drones are created before the travel begins. It also assumes that such biological drones are not suitable for long hibernations, while on Earth such species do exist. It also assumes that they only make biological drones or mechanical ones, but not both.
We don’t know what we don’t know, or how far technology can go, so it doesn’t make sense to say “aliens can’t do this because we can’t” or “because we find it implausible”.
It’s just more likely for them to follow the rules of the world as we know them as it is the most parsimonious explanation. In science you have to be parsimonious.
I get where you are coming from, and I certainly agree that it would take a great deal of evidence for any of these more complex explanations to take hold broadly. Concrete quantifiable evidence has been very lacking so far.
I would disagree on the creating complex life. Science has shown very capable but is limited by law as genetic engineering is quite controversial.
I simply find the idea that some exotic far more advanced life has figured out how to build biological remote controlled drones designed to function in their work environment while they themselves stay home sounds more plausible then a huge nomad ship that works entire generations to get somewhere. The first sounds like an eventual phase of any advanced society i can think off. The second sounds like space refugees in a dire situation.
Theres no way to break physics, you can only understand them well enough to apply them in seemingly magical ways.
Genetic engineering can do a lot. However, all laws be damned (which they almost are for many non vertebrate life forms) we are nowhere near creating anything resembling biological drones, or even sure that it’s possible to a useful extent. Also why use biological drones for a long journey instead of mechanical ones that are well suited to long hibernations and high radios environments? Also they can do stuff like send radio signals or take photos which would be useful for exploration. Same as physics, why do aliens get a free pass on what is basically biology magic?
Regarding physics, we have a very good and extensive understanding of the laws of physics. Thermodynamics and other rules of motion, speed and energy are very well studied and I don’t think there have been big surprises in a long time. So if aliens are doing what people are claiming the UAPs are doing, they are clearly breaking the laws of physics as we know them, so other explanations are most likely to be true (see the video linked in my other comment).
Saying stuff like “advanced physics is indistinguishable from magic” may be true if we’re talking about the knowledge of the average person and special little magic tricks (superconductors levitating magnets for example), but dismissing fundamental principles like that is just handwaving away any basis of our current understanding of reality and opening the door to wishful thinking and alien magic.
There are multiple theories about how uap are moving the way we perceive it. All outlandish hypotheticals but none are disproven.
My favorites to think about:
manipulation of spacetime: we know this is possible thanks to black holes but we havent figured out how or why yet.
multi-dimensional objects interjects with our space: just like a 3d ball object can appear, change size, and disappear by rolling trough a 2d plane.
advanced understanding and maybe manipulation of a planets electromagnetic field allowing for precise pulling/push of an object: In my head this would require subsurface station or relay points, wouldn’t work in space but with what i’ve seen of human progress we might archive this ourselves in the near future.
About the practicality of bioengineering i disagree that mechanical drones would be superior. They require resources and energy to build and move around. Take a lot of time to design and are rarely capable of doing anything beyond their design scope. A biological lifeforms could be vat grown pretty much at location build for whatever purpose you need. There gonna be on earth? Maybe a set of lungs to get all the free energy from the air and hands to interact with human infrastructure.
The idea that only machines are capable of sending signals and taking photos seems moot as we humans have gotten very close to extracting images straight from the brain and bats having been using echo location forever.
Disagreeing aside. This has been a really cool discussion, we just tackle it from different perspectives, which is ok if not an ideal.
The actual recorded evidence for UAPs needs none of these complicated explanations to be explained by mundane occurrences (see the videos I linked previously).
Growing completely new animals on location would be an enormous feat, especially if you can’t know beforehand what you will be encountering. It still seems easier to me to have a robot Lego set with you that you can just assemble into the shape you need.
I’m not saying that biologicals are unable to send signals (otherwise people couldn’t talk), I’m saying radio signals since they are the kind of signal you need for long distance communication. And extracting images from a brain is probably much worse than taking a photo with something that can be produced by a civilisation that can do this easily.
Yes it has been an interesting and civil discussion, which is nice.
Our current level of this tech is indeed far from real footage reality but still very impressive, there are a few groups working on different angles to properly invent this tech
https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxje8n/researchers-use-ai-to-generate-images-based-on-peoples-brain-activity#
I actually like to take that hypothetical much further into the potential of streaming consciousness. But then we’re getting in almost pure sci fi terrain. It “sounds” more reasonable for a bio engineered lifeform then a machine to be capable of housing consciousness.
I fully understand if you cant take me serious anymore at that line, but when i am entertaining the idea that aliens are already here then i can only picture them as vastly intellectually superior because i feel like humans have only just scratched the initial surface of our potential and are a very long way from reaching another solar system. (Even with a generational ship)
Absolutely no scientific value beyond this point:
The result of conciouss streaming would be that a superior species would never need to endanger themselves. It would go like this:
An automated vessel travels the galaxy discovering interesting planets, like those containing life.
Some initial samples are collected to make up the environment of the planet and how the local life manages to survive on it.
Local dna of a dominating species is cloned and made compatible with their own.
Intellectually bored aliens stream their consciousness to the bio vessel in a way that we can only refer to as “like full dive vr” interacting with alien worlds and life is a common and mentally stimulating hobby. They get to experience the other world realities with a real body with no downsides or mortality.
Theres some moral dilema with this strain of thoughts like would the bio engineered creature not have a mind of its own.
As a lover of science and the mysteries of the universe it makes sense to me that any society smart enough to to destroy themselves will at some point evolve towards
1 - the levels of required science become not only possible but common knowledge as the universe literally runs out of scientific secrets.
1- quality of life, freedom and luxury reaches the point where space exploration and trying to understand/support other lifeforms becomes the only pastime still yielding meaningfull reward.
There is absolutely nothing from the recorded uaps that points toward this though, i am overall quite sceptical about the more official US disclose and rather focus on patterns in the bigger body of mostly nonsense stories. Some frequent patterns being the appearance of humanoid “greys” wearing no clothes and having no genitals and technology wise no buttons, handles, screens or interfeces. Take only with your most delicious grains of salt. It is friday after all.
It’s a cool idea, I’ll give you that. Kinda like avatar. We’ll have to see if any credible evidence for extraterrestrial life turns up. I’m certainly hoping I’ll see it in my lifetime.
That assumes that the biological drones are created before the travel begins. It also assumes that such biological drones are not suitable for long hibernations, while on Earth such species do exist. It also assumes that they only make biological drones or mechanical ones, but not both.
We don’t know what we don’t know, or how far technology can go, so it doesn’t make sense to say “aliens can’t do this because we can’t” or “because we find it implausible”.
It’s just more likely for them to follow the rules of the world as we know them as it is the most parsimonious explanation. In science you have to be parsimonious.
I get where you are coming from, and I certainly agree that it would take a great deal of evidence for any of these more complex explanations to take hold broadly. Concrete quantifiable evidence has been very lacking so far.