I’d also like to mention that factory farming makes up the vast vast vast majority of the meat, dairy and eggs that people consume
Which is why we should dramatically reduce consumption.
Unless it’s your own cow, or you visited the farm and saw it for yourself, it’s safe to say it’s factory farmed
Are you from the US, by chance? I live in a place where these have to be marked and certified, so when I’m buying my free-range eggs, I know they’re free-range eggs.
Other regulatory frameworks are, to put it mildly, not as good. In the US, for example, there is no actual regulation over what constitutes a free-range egg, so it’s just a marketing term there.
Sounds like something that needs to be changed in the US.
Is that a specific standard or industry practice? Could you point me to that please?
I also have my personal experience of being interviewed as a software tech for a company building software and hardware for modern “ethical milk production” facilities, where the cows essentially had a spa day every day. Full free range, called for snacks by an audio signal, weighted, tested while walking to the feeding station, the food mixed specifically to naturally boost health based on the blood test results, getting a massage while eating.
I’m not bothered by that. I’m sure we can do conservation in the frankly absurd possibility they get on the endangered species list. I’m more concerned about the incredible scale and normalization of extreme amounts of suffering inflicted needlessly every day.
Let me get this straight - you’re OK with exterminating 99,9999% of all farm animals on the spot, because “eating meat is unethical”, but you’re NOT OK with switching gears on vegan campaigns from “if you eat meat, you’re a murderer” to “maybe eat less meat, yeah”?
Like, we’re talking hypothetical here either way, right? You’re not getting yours, I’m not getting mine because people are dumb and lazy, but if you could get 100% success on either of those, which option would you choose? Extermination, or natural dying off due to people cutting down on meat?
We’ve known for decades about the incredibly unnecessary suffering that carbon dioxide gas chambers inflict on pigs
The website fails to mention anything relevant to that suffering. To my knowledge, CO2 gently puts you to sleep that you never wake up from. At least that’s how it works on humans. Is it different with pigs?
It hasn’t worked because, to put it bluntly, gas chambers are cheaper than boltguns.
Well, THAT’S a new one for me. 15 years ago people were campaigning against boltguns because the pigs can smell the blood and detect the fear of those in front of the line, causing immense stress. Are you now saying that boltguns are the preferred method to CO2?
Which is why we should dramatically reduce consumption.
Agreed. Veganism is a viable way to do that.
Are you from the US, by chance? I live in a place where these have to be marked and certified, so when I’m buying my free-range eggs, I know they’re free-range eggs.
No, I’m from the EU. Things are much better here on that front, but it’s worth mentioning the situation in other developed countries.
Here’s an example.
Thank you! That sounds amazing compared to the current industry standard.
EDIT: Did some more reading and ended up here. Thanks again for introducing me to a concept & movement that might improve animal welfare somewhat.
Let me get this straight - you’re OK with exterminating 99,9999% of all farm animals on the spot, because “eating meat is unethical”, but you’re NOT OK with switching gears on vegan campaigns from “if you eat meat, you’re a murderer” to “maybe eat less meat, yeah”?
I’d appreciate you not strawmanning my position, please. My perspective is that you’re never going to get to 100% veganism, at least not in the foreseeable future. Any vegan transition is going to be gradual, as the percentage of vegans goes up if we do a good job of advocating for the position. As the percentage of vegans gradually goes up, the number of factory farms gradually goes down as demand goes down. In no case is it going to be necessary to do any kind of mass culling, just breeding less. If in 500 years, assuming we survive that long, the number of vegans is so high that there’s no demand for meat at all, our descendants can talk then.
To my knowledge, CO2 gently puts you to sleep that you never wake up from.
The videos of pigs screaming and struggling to escape the cage as they asphyxiate are readily available. That’s not how that works at all. Interestingly enough, mammals don’t have any way to detect asphyxiation directly: what they actually do is detect unusually high levels of CO2 in the blood. That’s what triggers the feeling of suffocation.
If you want a scientific paper about exactly what’s going on with pigs, I’d recommend this.
15 years ago people were campaigning against boltguns because the pigs can smell the blood and detect the fear of those in front of the line
This is true. Unfortunately, pigs are smart (dog-level intelligence). There’s basically no way to kill them without them realizing something is going down. I’d still argue that up to a minute of struggle, fear and asphyxiation is worse than just fear.
And memes like in the OP are an excellent way to push undecided people away form veganism.
My perspective is that you’re never going to get to 100% veganism, at least not in the foreseeable future. Any vegan transition is going to be gradual, as the percentage of vegans goes up if we do a good job of advocating for the position
That’s precisely what I’m advocating for too. Problem is: memes like in the OP and the people who believe in them don’t feel that way. They will happily call anyone eating meat a murderer, regardless of circumstance completely ignoring that fact that - if their ideology magically got immediately implemented, all those animals would have to be exterminated.
If you want a scientific paper about exactly what’s going on with pigs, I’d recommend this.
Cheers for that! Sounds like the classic “it works on humans like so, therefore it must work on everything else as well” without any actual research was done before introducing the CO2 method…
Which is why we should dramatically reduce consumption.
Are you from the US, by chance? I live in a place where these have to be marked and certified, so when I’m buying my free-range eggs, I know they’re free-range eggs.
Sounds like something that needs to be changed in the US.
Here’s an example.
I also have my personal experience of being interviewed as a software tech for a company building software and hardware for modern “ethical milk production” facilities, where the cows essentially had a spa day every day. Full free range, called for snacks by an audio signal, weighted, tested while walking to the feeding station, the food mixed specifically to naturally boost health based on the blood test results, getting a massage while eating.
Let me get this straight - you’re OK with exterminating 99,9999% of all farm animals on the spot, because “eating meat is unethical”, but you’re NOT OK with switching gears on vegan campaigns from “if you eat meat, you’re a murderer” to “maybe eat less meat, yeah”?
Like, we’re talking hypothetical here either way, right? You’re not getting yours, I’m not getting mine because people are dumb and lazy, but if you could get 100% success on either of those, which option would you choose? Extermination, or natural dying off due to people cutting down on meat?
The website fails to mention anything relevant to that suffering. To my knowledge, CO2 gently puts you to sleep that you never wake up from. At least that’s how it works on humans. Is it different with pigs?
Well, THAT’S a new one for me. 15 years ago people were campaigning against boltguns because the pigs can smell the blood and detect the fear of those in front of the line, causing immense stress. Are you now saying that boltguns are the preferred method to CO2?
Agreed. Veganism is a viable way to do that.
No, I’m from the EU. Things are much better here on that front, but it’s worth mentioning the situation in other developed countries.
Thank you! That sounds amazing compared to the current industry standard.
EDIT: Did some more reading and ended up here. Thanks again for introducing me to a concept & movement that might improve animal welfare somewhat.
I’d appreciate you not strawmanning my position, please. My perspective is that you’re never going to get to 100% veganism, at least not in the foreseeable future. Any vegan transition is going to be gradual, as the percentage of vegans goes up if we do a good job of advocating for the position. As the percentage of vegans gradually goes up, the number of factory farms gradually goes down as demand goes down. In no case is it going to be necessary to do any kind of mass culling, just breeding less. If in 500 years, assuming we survive that long, the number of vegans is so high that there’s no demand for meat at all, our descendants can talk then.
The videos of pigs screaming and struggling to escape the cage as they asphyxiate are readily available. That’s not how that works at all. Interestingly enough, mammals don’t have any way to detect asphyxiation directly: what they actually do is detect unusually high levels of CO2 in the blood. That’s what triggers the feeling of suffocation.
If you want a scientific paper about exactly what’s going on with pigs, I’d recommend this.
This is true. Unfortunately, pigs are smart (dog-level intelligence). There’s basically no way to kill them without them realizing something is going down. I’d still argue that up to a minute of struggle, fear and asphyxiation is worse than just fear.
And memes like in the OP are an excellent way to push undecided people away form veganism.
That’s precisely what I’m advocating for too. Problem is: memes like in the OP and the people who believe in them don’t feel that way. They will happily call anyone eating meat a murderer, regardless of circumstance completely ignoring that fact that - if their ideology magically got immediately implemented, all those animals would have to be exterminated.
Cheers for that! Sounds like the classic “it works on humans like so, therefore it must work on everything else as well” without any actual research was done before introducing the CO2 method…