If the chickens decide to start a band, what would it be called?

Alright we can agree on that, I prefer the European approach too.

As a general statement that’s true, but it’s not that clear cut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Most countries have additional provisions in place, for example:

Germany

The age of consent in Germany is 14, as long as a person over the age of 18 does not exploit a 14- to 15-year-old person’s lack of capacity for sexual self-determination, in which case a conviction of an individual over the age of 18 requires a complaint from the younger individual; being over 21 and engaging in sexual relations with a minor of that age does not constitute an offense by itself. Otherwise the age of consent is 16, although provisions protecting minors against abuse apply until the age of 18 (under Section 182(1): it is illegal to engage in sexual activity with a person under 18 “by taking advantage of an exploitative situation”.

France

Article 227-27 prohibits sexual relations with minors over age 15 (aged 15, 16 or 17) “1° where they are committed by an ascendant or by any other person having a legal or factual authority over the victim; 2° where they are committed by a person abusing the authority conferred by his functions.”[33]

Spain

The age of consent in Spain is 16, under a new law which came into effect on 1 July 2015. The age of consent rises to 18 if there is deception or abuse of a recognized position of trust, authority or influence over the minor.

Romania

The Romanian Criminal Code currently sets the age of consent to 16,[103] according to legal changes in 2020. In addition, it is illegal for an adult to engage in sexual acts with an adolescent under 18, if the adult abuses the authority or influence they have over the minor in order to gain the sexual access.

…etc

I don’t disagree with either approach, they are different ways of getting similar outcomes.

The point is we recognize that there are certain situations where there is likely to be an unhealthy power imbalance. Relationships between young teens and adults are one of those situations.

Like I said before, young teens are at the mercy of hormones, tend to be emotionally unstable, don’t have any real life experience yet, are idealistic, rebellious, etc. Throw in the likely power imbalance and they are really easy to abuse and take advantage of. This makes them vulnerable, you can’t blame people for wanting to protect them through laws, and assholes like Epstein are a prime example of why those laws exist.

If Ronald would’ve used his immense power to sleep around with young girls, that would’ve absolutely been a problem. Look at Bill Clinton for that example. We legislate against power imbalances everywhere, the entire structure of the US government is meant to provide a system of checks and balances. We try to break monopolies, give workers rights, create unions, give tenants rights, etc, all of this is as a response to power imbalances.

Are you going to tell me that Epstein was innocent too?

There are Epstein victims who don’t consider that any harm was done. There are also far more who do. Epstein didn’t pull them into the bushes to rape them, he used his power and influence to get them into those situations where they felt compelled to go along with what was happening.

What is the argument to why power imbalance is bullshit? You say it’s easy to prove but provide no counter arguments.

That’s a bit like saying there is no evidence that working in the mines harms children if there are adequate safety measures in place.

Laws are like that, they are somewhat rigid and imperfect. Yes abuse happens so the law is there to combat that. Sure, we can look at this attractive young woman and consider that we would’ve been happy to have sex with her at 16 - this doesn’t invalidate the reason why the law exists. She should’ve known better as an adult, the fact that she’s young and attractive and otherwise a nice person is tough shit.

When it comes to sex, most countries legislate against the age difference, not so much the act itself. If it’s two 15 years olds doing it together then the law doesn’t care in most places. The law does care if one of them is 20 though. There’s a huge power imbalance between a 15 year old and a 20 year old, the 15 year old doesn’t have any real life experience to draw on either, so they are vulnerable to abuse.

Teenagers are stubborn and think they know everything - this is absolutely true, call that headstrong if you will. They are also at the mercy of hormones, tend to be emotionally unstable, don’t have any real life experience yet, are idealistic, rebellious, etc. Throw in the inherent power imbalance between them and an adult, and I maintain that they are really easy to manipulate and take advantage of.

I think we can both agree that the line has to be drawn somewhere, you just believe it should be lower. Indeed countries around the world aren’t aligned on it either, the age of consent is 16 in some places, 18 in others, some even higher, etc.

Some things are outright silly, for example I strongly disagree with having to be 21 to buy alcohol in the states, I think that’s just stupid. In places like Belgium the legal drinking age is 16 and to me that feels right. Teenagers are going to drink no matter where you set the bar, driving it underground helps nobody.

I also see no problem with two 16 year olds getting it on. I absolutely think it’s problematic for a 25 year old to be chasing a 15 year old though.

Personally I would define it based on the age gap, e.g. it’s not a problem as long as the age gap between them doesn’t exceed 2 years while one of them is under 18. All bets are off after that.

Drinking legally I would set at 16, voting and joining the army at 18.

Yes we can watch a short documentary with moving music and touching narration about how the life of this poor young mother is ruined because she had consensual drunken sex with a minor. There are also countless examples of grown adults preying on young teens for their sexual gratification. At the end of the day, nobody wants that to happen to their child.

I think a lot of it is reactionary. The opposite is also true, what used to be shocking and scandalous a few decades ago is commonplace and acceptable now.

The poles keep drifting further away from each other and society is increasingly divided between them.

Age of consent exists because young humans are ridiculously easy to manipulate and take advantage of, especially by an adult. It’s not that 14 year olds don’t get horny or their junk doesn’t work, rather they are vulnerable to abuse and so these laws exist to try and protect them.

Almost universally, people don’t want anyone fucking their children until they’re certain that they are old enough to make informed decisions.

I don’t think the punishment necessarily fits the crime here, but it’s not a simple taboo either.