CW: Post discusses ABA and possibly Trauma, internalized ableism

Hello there! I’m currently researching the issue of ABA. I’m reading a lot about the criticisms, but most of the resources I found so far are (likely) made by level 1 autistics. As level 2 and level 3 autistics are not as well represented within autism self-advocacy, I would like to understand their position better on the topic. A usual defense for ABA is that it can help high-support-needs autistics to learn important skills, but I would like to read about that from an autistic perspective.

So if there are resources on the subject you can recommend, I’ll be grateful! thank you

edit: I’m updating because users in this thread changed my view on this issue. I’ve been caught up in functioning label, which at the end of the day “levels” of autism still are. Here is what changed my mind:

Those needs you are looking for in an autistic person are completely and utterly irrelevant to you as a reader of their experience, and as far as you’re concerned any or all of the people who have already written about their experience of ABA fit in to your narrow and ignorant category, they just didn’t mention it because again - it isn’t fucking relevant.

There is no reason for me to specifically look for “level 2 or 3” autistics since their experiences are valid, regardless of them disclosing their support needs. It is ableist to expect them to disclose to me how “disabled” they are in order for me to validate their experience. Thanks @DessertStorms@kbin.social and @Ransom@lemmy.ca for helping me understand this. So in a way I found the answers I was looking for, and now I have some thinking to do

  • Ransom@lemmy.caEnglish
    185·
    9 months ago

    There is no defense for ABA, period. ABA techniques were adapted for gay conversion therapy, which says a lot. ABA absolutely does not help anyone to learn important skills, but forces people to hide who they are to avoid shame and punishment. It’s abusive, causes trauma, and is not okay.

    The use of “levels” is also profoundly problematic. Google it.

    I understand what you’re looking for, but happily talking about ABA in an autism space is like asking LGBTQ folks about their positive experiences with gay conversion therapy. Others might feel differently, but some of us have been affected by our past experiences and don’t really care to be reminded of them.

    • Deestan@lemmy.worldEnglish
      173·
      9 months ago

      Instead of “Google it”, present links to useful resources.

      Google has not only gotten worse in general, but is providing completely different realities to different people. You may have that really insightful article as your top result, but someone else will have some unilluminating social media arguments or even several articles defending it eloquently.

      • Ransom@lemmy.caEnglish
        42·
        9 months ago

        It’s exhausting to be the research assistant for people who aren’t willing to put in the work. (Not saying that that’s OP.) It’s more within my capacity to point out where someone is making a gaffe and have them do the work to figure out why. I’ve been internetting since Telnet days and nothing has changed: people aren’t interested in sources you find for them, esp. on highly charged topics like this.

        • Deestan@lemmy.worldEnglish
          142·
          9 months ago

          As you appear within minutes in the middle of a discussion you were not initially part of, in a community you have no recent history of engaging in, I have to assume you have some relation to the comment I replied to.

          Tell the same to them. Someone asked for resources, and were told “you are wrong to ask - go look for resources”.

          • Oisteink@feddit.nlEnglish
            15·
            9 months ago

            I have no idea what you’re on about, but it seems clear to me that you have a relation to Microsoft and are trying to push their agenda.

            Tell the same to them

            • sata_andagiEnglish
              2·
              9 months ago

              How did you come to that conclusion? If you interpret “Don’t use Google” as “Use Bing” that’s more of a you problem. There are more than two search engines.

    • nichtsowichtig@feddit.deOPEnglish
      6·
      9 months ago

      their positive experiences with gay conversion therapy.

      I am not looking for perspectives in favor of it, what I am looking for are any perspectives from people with high support needs, as the debate around it is usually led by either neurotypicals or (comparatively) independent autistics, who in many cases have no first hand experience with ABA. Autistics with high support needs are the ones most affected by ABA, and ironically they have virtually no voice in this debate, which bothered me.

      The use of “levels” is also profoundly problematic. Google it.

      Which expression do you prefer, then? genuine question. I found the ‘levels’ to be a better term as it distinguishes by support needs rather than ‘intelligence’, as the word ‘Asperger’ suggests. Googling didn’t help with that question. Again, let me know what your preferred expression is.

      ABA absolutely does not help anyone to learn important skills, but forces people to hide who they are to avoid shame and punishment. It’s abusive, causes trauma, and is not okay.

      I read plenty about these things, and that’s why I am also concerned. So what I’m looking for is experiences with the people most affected by it.

      (edit)

      but some of us have been affected by our past experiences and don’t really care to be reminded of them.

      Fair point. I added a Content Warning to the post.

      • DessertStorms@kbin.social
        52·
        9 months ago

        https://medium.com/neurodiversified/autism-levels-are-still-functioning-labels-f18ce20528dc

        https://autisticadvocacy.org/2021/12/functioning-labels-harm-autistic-people/

        https://psychiatry-uk.com/higher-or-lower-why-using-functional-labels-to-describe-autism-is-problematic/

        https://autisticmama.com/the-problem-with-autism-functioning-labels/

        You only wanting to hear from “level” whatever autistic people not only demonstrates your misunderstanding of the autistic spectrum, but also of how these external and artificial “rankings” aren’t there to benefit autistic people at all, but those looking to fit us in to their allistic boxes.

        We are all autistic and each have out own different and often varying needs, none of which are your business or relevant to your question.

        ABA is damaging to autistic people. those able to speak out about it, are. You not wanting to listen to them, or not considering them “enough” to satisfy whatever need it is you have (which I genuinely don’t understand), is a you problem.

        • nichtsowichtig@feddit.deOPEnglish
          2·
          9 months ago

          thanks for the links. To clarify, I oppose “functioning labels” like “severe” or “mild” autism. However, I think it is important to say that some autistics feel more disabled by their autism than others. Support need vary, and there should be a way to express that. If you have another term that is better, I’m all open to hear that! Finding good terms isn’t always easy. Doesn’t mean any one is better than the other. I agree with you insofar that any kind of “ranking” - as you say, is very misleading. I am usually called “mildly autistic” when I disclose my autism. Which is not how I experience it. I’d personally be more comfortable with being called a high masking autistic, as it doesn’t invalidate my experience as much. Again, I am open for better words here. What I read about people who identify as level 2 or 3 autistics is that it is important to them to make some distinction, as their experience is quite different from people with lower support needs.

          You not wanting to listen to them, or not considering them “enough” to satisfy whatever need it is you have (which I genuinely don’t understand), is a you problem.

          You misunderstand me here. I precisely want to listen to them. What I am looking for is perspectives from people who dealt with more impairing issues (eg problems getting dressed, basic hygiene, trouble to communicate basic needs etc). I haven’t seen the perspectives from these particular people.

          • Ransom@lemmy.caEnglish
            5·
            9 months ago

            perspectives from people who dealt with more impairing issues (eg problems getting dressed, basic hygiene, trouble to communicate basic needs etc)

            So those are all me. ABA still sucks. Im okay with admitting that, but I would think that you’d have to be pretty vulnerable to share that info, and not everyone is there. Maybe you have received perspectives from people with those issues who have chosen to not communicate those aspects of their selves.

            • nichtsowichtig@feddit.deOPEnglish
              3·
              9 months ago

              Im okay with admitting that, but I would think that you’d have to be pretty vulnerable to share that info

              you are right. It is inconsiderate of me to expect people to disclose vulnerabilities in order to have their perspectives validated. I wouldn’t want to be treated that way either.

            • DessertStorms@kbin.social
              31·
              9 months ago

              Right? It’s like this person is looking for some messed up twist on inspiration porn/voyeuristic experience where they need to read about how hard a person might find to wipe their ass before they’ll consider their experience relevant, it’s such bizarre, and ableist, gatekeeping…

          • DessertStorms@kbin.social
            3·
            9 months ago

            I think it is important to say that some autistics feel more disabled by their autism than others. Support need vary, and there should be a way to express that. If you have another term that is better, I’m all open to hear that!

            You don’t need terms. Autistic people are as individual as everyone else, and you have zero need to know an autistic persons’ individual needs. If you need to discuss your own needs with a healthcare professional, you go ahead and do that without placing yourself on a scale in comparison to others.

            Did you actually read any of the links, or just thank me for them?

            Either way, here are a couple of others you could probably use:

            https://www.neurodiverging.com/what-is-internalized-ableism-neurodivergent-people-need-to-know/

            https://www.autisticparentsuk.org/post/overcoming-internalised-ableism

            If you really want to insist on ranking yourself, no one is going to stop you, but you don’t get to rank others, nor to pretend that ranking yourself is completely benign and not tied in to ableism, internalised or otherwise.

            As for the last part - I didn’t misunderstand you at all. Those needs you are looking for in an autistic person are completely and utterly irrelevant to you as a reader of their experience, and as far as you’re concerned any or all of the people who have already written about their experience of ABA fit in to your narrow and ignorant category, they just didn’t mention it because again - it isn’t fucking relevant.