Except for the part when he called for his followers to take up swords and abandon their families (Matt. 10:34-36, among other passages).
And the part where he claimed that loving the Father took precedence over treating others with love and respect (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), which opens the door for all manner of inhuman atrocities and hate in the name of “loving God”
Matthew 10 is definitely more about conviction in the face of persecution, even from one’s own family, than literally taking up swords. Just a few verses earlier, 10:16, he specifically says to be harmless as doves.
You’re gonna have to find me an actual verse on that second part, as I interpret it, “loving the Father” goes hand-in-hand with treating others with love and respect.
Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Luke 22:35-36
FWIW this is absent in Marcion’s version of the gospel which was likely representing one of the earliest surviving versions and I’m pretty much positive this is a later redactional addition (the part about taking a purse relates to taking money from people when ministering), but in terms whether there’s a canonical quote of Jesus literally telling people to take up arms, ask and ye shall receive.
It’s useful to look at the gospels through the lens of redactional layers.
So for example a later editor may have wanted to include Matthew’s rebuke of using swords as is mentioned in Mark and was originally omitted in first draft Luke, and then the editor thought they needed to explain why they had swords in the first place by having Jesus at the last supper command them to immediately go out and buy swords.
I’ll also add that in Matthew’s account that Jesus says at that moment to put away the sword because (loosely) “those who use the shall die by the sword”. And he later says, as if he couldn’t summon heaven’s army if needed.
An interpretation could be that it’s a display that these things must happen and Jesus went willingly, not forced because he was unarmed. When Jesus preached, it wasn’t with sword in-hand. And in Matthew he specifies they are trying to get the better of him by doing this in the middle of the night and assume he is unarmed (as always).
Also later in the Luke he literally says that the two swords by them “is enough” so they don’t go and sell their things to buy swords.
I’d advise everyone to be careful about picking specific verses since the chapter/verse system is something added later for simplicity, not how it was intended to be read.
Matthew 10 is definitely more about conviction in the face of persecution, even from one’s own family, than literally taking up swords.
“I come not to bring peace, but a sword” is pretty unequivocal. Plus, consider “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36).
You’re gonna have to find me an actual verse on that second part, as I interpret it, “loving the Father” goes hand-in-hand with treating others with love and respect.
And as others interpret The Greatest Commandment, “love your neighbor” only applies to people that share the same ideals or religion. After all, there are multiple references in the New Testament to “God’s elect” (Rom. 8:33, Matt. 24:22) implying that those that are not “chosen” are somehow lesser. And is not exactly a new issue, as theologians have argued about predestination and God’s chosen people for centuries Foster, Robert Verrell (1898). Systematic Theology. Columbia University, among many others.
It’s not exactly encouraging that the Son of God can’t even explain the most important commandments in a simple, unambiguous manner…
The Son of Man. I don’t believe that Jesus was uniquely divine, I think he was uniquely conscious of the divinity within everyone.
Religion is a centuries-long game of telephone. Jesus never wrote anything. Prophets are enlightened examples of humanity, but with enough time the message is bent and twisted by less enlightened examples. You don’t have to think he was some supernatural creature to agree with his message, and you don’t have to reject the message to recognize that greedy people exploit popular movements for personal gain.
Trying to dismiss the message by poking holes in the secondhand accounts of his fan club is misguided. I should know, I spent long enough indulging in the practice myself.
Religion is a centuries-long game of telephone. Jesus never wrote anything.
Then why the hell did you bother asking for chapter and verse? Classic apologetics fan; ask for an example or evidence and then equivocate when you get exactly what you asked for.
Trying to dismiss the message by poking holes in the secondhand accounts of his fan club is misguided
Considering that the only thing left of the “enlightened” prophet are the secondhand accounts of his fan club, I’m not sure exactly what you think “the message” is…
I’m dismissive of “the message” not because it’s easy to poke holes in the theology and historicity of the Christian bible (although it obviously is), but because there is no consistent theology or message that can traced anyone with any sort of reliability. If that’s all there is to glean from exhaustive apologetics and exegesis of “the teachings of Jesus,” I won’t bother to go to a religion or guess “WWJD” for that; there are plenty of better moral frameworks and more consistent belief systems out there.
To point out that, even after the game of telephone, it still doesn’t say what you claim it does.
How so?
You still haven’t claimed anything at all other than “WWJD is a good rule of thumb,” with which I disagreed and provided examples of why I believe that WWJD is not a good moral or ethical model.
Which of those moral frameworks encourages antagonizing the beliefs of strangers?
Plenty of religions and secular moral frameworks value truth and honesty over protecting the feelings of others. Do I particularly care if I change your mind? No, you are entitled to your own beliefs and that’s fine. However, I’ve seen enough evil done in the name of WWJD and “God’s love” that I’m not going to ignore the questionable (and IMO irresponsible) claim that WWJD is a good moral framework when it’s presented in a public venue where others might read it.
If you don’t want to be challenged on it, keep your religion to yourself.
I disagreed and provided examples of why I believe that WWJD is not a good moral or ethical model.
You didn’t though? You brought up a verse about swords taken wildly out of context. You seem to be confusing a general tendency for charity, tolerance, and forgiveness with the entire combined corpus of various sects. What evil has been done in the name of WWJD? Sure, the Catholic Church has been co-opted by bastards essentially since it’s inception, and most other sects have their share of bastardry, but what does that have to do with emulating the most consistent elements of Jesus’s teachings? Forgive your trespassers, help the struggling, love your neighbor as yourself.
And to be clear, it’s not my religion. I do not profess to be a member of any Christian sect. I just think that most of the things Jesus himself said (or is purported to have said) are generally a good moral baseline. Further, based on his position on the Pharisees, I’m sure he himself would take serious issue with the evil done ostensibly in the name of his church. All the more support for WWJD.
WWJD is actually a great moral role of thumb, the problem is that so few self-proclaimed Christians follow his teachings.
Except for the part when he called for his followers to take up swords and abandon their families (Matt. 10:34-36, among other passages).
And the part where he claimed that loving the Father took precedence over treating others with love and respect (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), which opens the door for all manner of inhuman atrocities and hate in the name of “loving God”
Matthew 10 is definitely more about conviction in the face of persecution, even from one’s own family, than literally taking up swords. Just a few verses earlier, 10:16, he specifically says to be harmless as doves.
You’re gonna have to find me an actual verse on that second part, as I interpret it, “loving the Father” goes hand-in-hand with treating others with love and respect.
FWIW this is absent in Marcion’s version of the gospel which was likely representing one of the earliest surviving versions and I’m pretty much positive this is a later redactional addition (the part about taking a purse relates to taking money from people when ministering), but in terms whether there’s a canonical quote of Jesus literally telling people to take up arms, ask and ye shall receive.
But then in Luke 22:49-51 when they try to actually use those swords:
Which is also missing in Marcion’s version of Luke.
It’s useful to look at the gospels through the lens of redactional layers.
So for example a later editor may have wanted to include Matthew’s rebuke of using swords as is mentioned in Mark and was originally omitted in first draft Luke, and then the editor thought they needed to explain why they had swords in the first place by having Jesus at the last supper command them to immediately go out and buy swords.
I’ll also add that in Matthew’s account that Jesus says at that moment to put away the sword because (loosely) “those who use the shall die by the sword”. And he later says, as if he couldn’t summon heaven’s army if needed.
An interpretation could be that it’s a display that these things must happen and Jesus went willingly, not forced because he was unarmed. When Jesus preached, it wasn’t with sword in-hand. And in Matthew he specifies they are trying to get the better of him by doing this in the middle of the night and assume he is unarmed (as always).
Also later in the Luke he literally says that the two swords by them “is enough” so they don’t go and sell their things to buy swords.
I’d advise everyone to be careful about picking specific verses since the chapter/verse system is something added later for simplicity, not how it was intended to be read.
“I come not to bring peace, but a sword” is pretty unequivocal. Plus, consider “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36).
And as others interpret The Greatest Commandment, “love your neighbor” only applies to people that share the same ideals or religion. After all, there are multiple references in the New Testament to “God’s elect” (Rom. 8:33, Matt. 24:22) implying that those that are not “chosen” are somehow lesser. And is not exactly a new issue, as theologians have argued about predestination and God’s chosen people for centuries Foster, Robert Verrell (1898). Systematic Theology. Columbia University, among many others.
It’s not exactly encouraging that the Son of God can’t even explain the most important commandments in a simple, unambiguous manner…
The Son of Man. I don’t believe that Jesus was uniquely divine, I think he was uniquely conscious of the divinity within everyone.
Religion is a centuries-long game of telephone. Jesus never wrote anything. Prophets are enlightened examples of humanity, but with enough time the message is bent and twisted by less enlightened examples. You don’t have to think he was some supernatural creature to agree with his message, and you don’t have to reject the message to recognize that greedy people exploit popular movements for personal gain.
Trying to dismiss the message by poking holes in the secondhand accounts of his fan club is misguided. I should know, I spent long enough indulging in the practice myself.
Then why the hell did you bother asking for chapter and verse? Classic apologetics fan; ask for an example or evidence and then equivocate when you get exactly what you asked for.
Considering that the only thing left of the “enlightened” prophet are the secondhand accounts of his fan club, I’m not sure exactly what you think “the message” is…
I’m dismissive of “the message” not because it’s easy to poke holes in the theology and historicity of the Christian bible (although it obviously is), but because there is no consistent theology or message that can traced anyone with any sort of reliability. If that’s all there is to glean from exhaustive apologetics and exegesis of “the teachings of Jesus,” I won’t bother to go to a religion or guess “WWJD” for that; there are plenty of better moral frameworks and more consistent belief systems out there.
To point out that, even after the game of telephone, it still doesn’t say what you claim it does.
Which of those moral frameworks encourages antagonizing the beliefs of strangers?
How so?
You still haven’t claimed anything at all other than “WWJD is a good rule of thumb,” with which I disagreed and provided examples of why I believe that WWJD is not a good moral or ethical model.
Plenty of religions and secular moral frameworks value truth and honesty over protecting the feelings of others. Do I particularly care if I change your mind? No, you are entitled to your own beliefs and that’s fine. However, I’ve seen enough evil done in the name of WWJD and “God’s love” that I’m not going to ignore the questionable (and IMO irresponsible) claim that WWJD is a good moral framework when it’s presented in a public venue where others might read it.
If you don’t want to be challenged on it, keep your religion to yourself.
You didn’t though? You brought up a verse about swords taken wildly out of context. You seem to be confusing a general tendency for charity, tolerance, and forgiveness with the entire combined corpus of various sects. What evil has been done in the name of WWJD? Sure, the Catholic Church has been co-opted by bastards essentially since it’s inception, and most other sects have their share of bastardry, but what does that have to do with emulating the most consistent elements of Jesus’s teachings? Forgive your trespassers, help the struggling, love your neighbor as yourself.
And to be clear, it’s not my religion. I do not profess to be a member of any Christian sect. I just think that most of the things Jesus himself said (or is purported to have said) are generally a good moral baseline. Further, based on his position on the Pharisees, I’m sure he himself would take serious issue with the evil done ostensibly in the name of his church. All the more support for WWJD.