No not necessarily since government = force. The hope of libertarians is that they would do it out of a mutual interest in protecting others. The whole do what you want as long as it doesn’t impact me. That argument was proven fucked by the actions of the pandemic. That’s what I’m talking about.
Worse, there have been two “libertarian cities” over the past few years that suffered an awful fate. First thousands of people moved to a town in NH and then voted themselves into all city positions. They shut off the government, had everything collapse, and returned to where they came from a few years later when it turned out that fire fighters are nice and bears roaming the town (cuz one person’s hobby was to feed them donuts and they are libertarian so they can do that dontchano). In AZ, they built a community without any infrastructure specifically to avoid taxes and government control–they were buying water from another community until that community said they needed the water for themselves, leaving them with nothing.
Part of the problem is that from a social history standpoint, libertarianism typically has attracted people looking for an ideology to justify their selfishness.
The ideology that tends to attract people who value social organization while minimizing a forceful overarching government has been anarchism.
The whole point of a liberal democracy is that you replace “force” with individual political agency and consensus seeking mechanics. The state still maintains a monopoly on violence to some degree, but violence isn’t a necessary part of administering that monopoly. This is like the original enlightenment libertarian ideal. The whole Ayn Rand revisionist school and now whatever the fuck it is that Jordan Peterson is on is what fucked up the terminology
I don’t think it’s possible to reconcile no force, only mutual interest action, individual free actions with no or minimal negative mutual impact, and a single acceptable outcome…for basically any issue.
The hope of libertarians is that they would do it out of a mutual interest in protecting others.
The larger the population you apply that ideal to, the less possible it is, due to tribalism. To get rid of tribalism you have to get rid of humans. Fail to get rid of tribalism and libertarianism isn’t just dead on arrival, it’s spontaneously aborted.
I think Don’t Look Up got it pretty right, a lot of people would be willing to band together, if not the majority of the world. But politicians and billionaires would ruin it for everyone even if it means everyone dies. When the time comes we can still band together, and take down the people we need to
It boiled down to one idiot messing up the entire operation. the story breaks down on the part where he could do that without the government telling him to f— off. That would never be allo-
Here’s a plug for a book I’ve never read. I think you’ll like it.
Edit: I bought it.
Review: People are scary. Bears like donuts. Sometimes it’s hilarious when those facts combine. Other times, it’s terrifying.
Therefore, due to my judging you entirely on one sentence, you will enjoy this book. (That is not an exclusive link. Get it anywhere. I bet your library has an app that can send it to your phone.)
Honestly same both from and outsider and in group way. Libertarians we’re willing to do nothing to help or worse risk others lives to virtue signal and statist saw governments fail to do anything meaningful and waffle about the best restrictions to put in place and still thought “but if my guy was in charge”.
There were people making actual differences out there, but it almost always a political.
I’m glad mutual aid gained some hype for a little bit at least.
Yeah any ideology that’s dependent on nobody prioritizing their self interest over society’s best interest isn’t going to work.
But that doesn’t mean a functional society isn’t possible. We’re living in one right now. Sure there are a lot of improvements needed, but improvement is possible.
Utopia actually translates to “no place”. Only fictional people can achieve a utopia. Real life functional societies with real people are an iterative process. Make improvements, some asshole finds a loophole to exploit, make more improvements to prevent assholes from exploiting the system. Repeat. Do that over and over again, vote in elections over and over again to move society a little closer, inch by inch, a little closer to the ideal, even when the ideal isn’t actually possible.
Societies aren’t created by intelligent design, they’re a product of evolution. But that evolution can be guided by the people that vote. Democracy isn’t something that’s ideal, it’s a grind. You’re never going to be living in an ideal society, but if you try you can make the society you live in a little better.
Every strong libertarian I know, and there are several in my family, is strictly anti-mask and anti-vax. It boils down to “you can’t tell me what to do” and nothing else.
Right and that’s my point. I use to agree with that sentiment because it was built on the premise that people would do what they want as long as it wasn’t directly hurting others… Unfortunately we found that people thought their personal freedom meant more than protecting others.
One thing I have noticed recently, and I suppose it was the Pandemic that did it for me, is that we are sort of culturally narcissist in the West as a whole. People are very worried about their liberties, but few people stop to consider their social responsibilities. Libertarianism really is the idea that nobody has a responsibility towards other people–it’s a very selfish and narcissist way of thinking and requires you to be able to walk past someone who is suffering and who you could help with minimal effort/inconvenience, yet you mutter to yourself how it must suck to be them and continue on with your day.
Covid proved to me any libertarian hope/dream I had wouldn’t actually work because people would never get together to do the right thing as a group.
People getting together for the common good is just a government, the exact thing libertarians hate.
No not necessarily since government = force. The hope of libertarians is that they would do it out of a mutual interest in protecting others. The whole do what you want as long as it doesn’t impact me. That argument was proven fucked by the actions of the pandemic. That’s what I’m talking about.
Worse, there have been two “libertarian cities” over the past few years that suffered an awful fate. First thousands of people moved to a town in NH and then voted themselves into all city positions. They shut off the government, had everything collapse, and returned to where they came from a few years later when it turned out that fire fighters are nice and bears roaming the town (cuz one person’s hobby was to feed them donuts and they are libertarian so they can do that dontchano). In AZ, they built a community without any infrastructure specifically to avoid taxes and government control–they were buying water from another community until that community said they needed the water for themselves, leaving them with nothing.
What cities were those? Would love to read more about it
AZ was Rio Verde Foothills.
Most likely it was South Park, Gotham or Duckburg.
Part of the problem is that from a social history standpoint, libertarianism typically has attracted people looking for an ideology to justify their selfishness.
The ideology that tends to attract people who value social organization while minimizing a forceful overarching government has been anarchism.
The whole point of a liberal democracy is that you replace “force” with individual political agency and consensus seeking mechanics. The state still maintains a monopoly on violence to some degree, but violence isn’t a necessary part of administering that monopoly. This is like the original enlightenment libertarian ideal. The whole Ayn Rand revisionist school and now whatever the fuck it is that Jordan Peterson is on is what fucked up the terminology
I don’t think it’s possible to reconcile no force, only mutual interest action, individual free actions with no or minimal negative mutual impact, and a single acceptable outcome…for basically any issue.
The larger the population you apply that ideal to, the less possible it is, due to tribalism. To get rid of tribalism you have to get rid of humans. Fail to get rid of tribalism and libertarianism isn’t just dead on arrival, it’s spontaneously aborted.
I think Don’t Look Up got it pretty right, a lot of people would be willing to band together, if not the majority of the world. But politicians and billionaires would ruin it for everyone even if it means everyone dies. When the time comes we can still band together, and take down the people we need to
It boiled down to one idiot messing up the entire operation. the story breaks down on the part where he could do that without the government telling him to f— off. That would never be allo-
oh wait
https://www.amazon.com/Libertarian-Walks-Into-Bear-Liberate-ebook/dp/B083J1FXY8
Here’s a plug for a book I’ve never read. I think you’ll like it.
Edit: I bought it.
Review: People are scary. Bears like donuts. Sometimes it’s hilarious when those facts combine. Other times, it’s terrifying.
Therefore, due to my judging you entirely on one sentence, you will enjoy this book. (That is not an exclusive link. Get it anywhere. I bet your library has an app that can send it to your phone.)
Honestly same both from and outsider and in group way. Libertarians we’re willing to do nothing to help or worse risk others lives to virtue signal and statist saw governments fail to do anything meaningful and waffle about the best restrictions to put in place and still thought “but if my guy was in charge”.
There were people making actual differences out there, but it almost always a political.
I’m glad mutual aid gained some hype for a little bit at least.
You were smart enough to see that it’s really a fetish.
Yeah any ideology that’s dependent on nobody prioritizing their self interest over society’s best interest isn’t going to work.
But that doesn’t mean a functional society isn’t possible. We’re living in one right now. Sure there are a lot of improvements needed, but improvement is possible.
Utopia actually translates to “no place”. Only fictional people can achieve a utopia. Real life functional societies with real people are an iterative process. Make improvements, some asshole finds a loophole to exploit, make more improvements to prevent assholes from exploiting the system. Repeat. Do that over and over again, vote in elections over and over again to move society a little closer, inch by inch, a little closer to the ideal, even when the ideal isn’t actually possible.
Societies aren’t created by intelligent design, they’re a product of evolution. But that evolution can be guided by the people that vote. Democracy isn’t something that’s ideal, it’s a grind. You’re never going to be living in an ideal society, but if you try you can make the society you live in a little better.
What does this even mean? What does COVID have to do with Libertarianism?
Every strong libertarian I know, and there are several in my family, is strictly anti-mask and anti-vax. It boils down to “you can’t tell me what to do” and nothing else.
Right and that’s my point. I use to agree with that sentiment because it was built on the premise that people would do what they want as long as it wasn’t directly hurting others… Unfortunately we found that people thought their personal freedom meant more than protecting others.
Which is disheartening and eye opening.
One thing I have noticed recently, and I suppose it was the Pandemic that did it for me, is that we are sort of culturally narcissist in the West as a whole. People are very worried about their liberties, but few people stop to consider their social responsibilities. Libertarianism really is the idea that nobody has a responsibility towards other people–it’s a very selfish and narcissist way of thinking and requires you to be able to walk past someone who is suffering and who you could help with minimal effort/inconvenience, yet you mutter to yourself how it must suck to be them and continue on with your day.