I agree that the PATRIOT act has harmed American citizens, but I think that’s a completely Western-centric way of thinking that likely wouldn’t even cross the mind of a radical Islamist. I don’t think it can be said to have harmed the USA in the way that would further any of bin Laden’s goals that we can infer from his words or otherwise. If anything, bin Laden was an authoritarian himself and so would be more likely to believe that state surveillance is beneficial to the wellbeing of the state.
One more time. I have at no time asserted that his stated goal was impossible or unachievable. Quit putting words in my mouth. I’m talking about how they get accomplished, yes?
Seems to me you’re still saying 9/11 couldn’t have achieved it.
You really want to get into a sidetrack about how a surveillance state harms the citizens of a democracy in a way that makes them prefer isolationism?
I want you to lay out why you think the PATRIOT act or something like it was likely foreseen by bin Laden and why he thought it would likely further his goals. You’re hinting at a discussion from the perspective of “privacy-oriented types” rather than from bin Laden’s perspective. There’s to be done here than just argue, “bin Laden wanted to harm America, and eroding privacy harms America, therefore bin Laden did 9/11 to erode privacy.” Many consequences of 9/11 might further or hinder bin Laden’s goals, but IMO we’re talking about more than that.
Ah, I see. So, I don’t believe Bin Laden foresaw the Patriot Act in any way shape or form. From his perspective specifically, it’d be about sowing as much fear and discomfort as possible. I doubt he personally was able to predict the exact form that fear and discomfort would take, but it doesn’t really matter. Surveillance harms us exactly because it creates more fear and discomfort. The specifics are an irrelevant detail though, not something he has influence over or needs to care about. Not mission-critical information.
The fear and discomfort in turn leads to more radical behavior, it helps drive folks crazy, to speak colloquially.
This is the real key that can and probably eventually will drive us from the Middle East. Without it, and the emotional feeling of disgust it creates within us, it would’ve taken a mammoth amount of casualties and/or economic damage to accomplish that. We have a long history of being unbelievably stubborn. Additionally, we weren’t yet energy independent back then, before our fracking boom, so being there was an additional economic necessity he would’ve felt needed to be overcome.
Look at it this way: He wanted to create more Islamophobia. So we would leave all the Muslims alone, eventually, since genociding them isn’t an option for decent folk, which we (mostly) want to be. Something we now have to wrestle with concerning Israeli actions.
It’s basically how terrorism works as a political and military tool, how it attempts to accomplish its intended goals. It’s not usually so successful, though. But I would say this time, fear was successfully sown, and domestic harmony effectively destroyed. We haven’t really been politically functional since then, though that’s my opinion, again.
I agree that the PATRIOT act has harmed American citizens, but I think that’s a completely Western-centric way of thinking that likely wouldn’t even cross the mind of a radical Islamist. I don’t think it can be said to have harmed the USA in the way that would further any of bin Laden’s goals that we can infer from his words or otherwise. If anything, bin Laden was an authoritarian himself and so would be more likely to believe that state surveillance is beneficial to the wellbeing of the state.
Seems to me you’re still saying 9/11 couldn’t have achieved it.
I want you to lay out why you think the PATRIOT act or something like it was likely foreseen by bin Laden and why he thought it would likely further his goals. You’re hinting at a discussion from the perspective of “privacy-oriented types” rather than from bin Laden’s perspective. There’s to be done here than just argue, “bin Laden wanted to harm America, and eroding privacy harms America, therefore bin Laden did 9/11 to erode privacy.” Many consequences of 9/11 might further or hinder bin Laden’s goals, but IMO we’re talking about more than that.
Ah, I see. So, I don’t believe Bin Laden foresaw the Patriot Act in any way shape or form. From his perspective specifically, it’d be about sowing as much fear and discomfort as possible. I doubt he personally was able to predict the exact form that fear and discomfort would take, but it doesn’t really matter. Surveillance harms us exactly because it creates more fear and discomfort. The specifics are an irrelevant detail though, not something he has influence over or needs to care about. Not mission-critical information.
The fear and discomfort in turn leads to more radical behavior, it helps drive folks crazy, to speak colloquially.
This is the real key that can and probably eventually will drive us from the Middle East. Without it, and the emotional feeling of disgust it creates within us, it would’ve taken a mammoth amount of casualties and/or economic damage to accomplish that. We have a long history of being unbelievably stubborn. Additionally, we weren’t yet energy independent back then, before our fracking boom, so being there was an additional economic necessity he would’ve felt needed to be overcome.
Look at it this way: He wanted to create more Islamophobia. So we would leave all the Muslims alone, eventually, since genociding them isn’t an option for decent folk, which we (mostly) want to be. Something we now have to wrestle with concerning Israeli actions.
It’s basically how terrorism works as a political and military tool, how it attempts to accomplish its intended goals. It’s not usually so successful, though. But I would say this time, fear was successfully sown, and domestic harmony effectively destroyed. We haven’t really been politically functional since then, though that’s my opinion, again.
OK, looks like I misunderstood what you were saying. Fair enough.