Which is why /u/jailbaitlover I mean /u/spez is sending the message that they would gladly give total power to whatever mod crosses the picket line so they can boot the rest.
If Reddit had to replace all these mods it would be complete chaos and is not much better than the blackout. They will see the same exact problems Twitter has seen since they fired most of their content moderators.
I think what this entire debacle has revealed is how incredibly unfit Huffman is to be involved in running a major site, much less one with as much reach as reddit.
I’ve read most of his comments and it’s all centered around “reddit can’t afford to keep paying everyone’s API fees while everyone else makes bank”. Which is fair enough.
But it also reads like a CEO who simply hasn’t been paying attention to much of anything and who woke up one morning to realize that they’d already handed away the company’s most valuable assets by letting Google and ChatGPT and other LLM companies harvest everything they need to build their products while reddit happily and blithely pays the bills. And now that other companies are starting to look profitable by building off what reddit paid to give away, Hoffman is both massively jealous and panicking, desperately trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Only instead of going through every company that uses the API, figuring out how much they use and what they use it for and how necessary that use is for reddit’s business, it looks like he panicked and tried to charge everyone the same rate. He didn’t do any research into the issue and realize that Google harvests massive amounts of data that it uses in it’s search results and to improve and program it’s products and makes massive amounts of money, vs small apps that run basic queries that massively improve the reddit experience and that don’t make much money at all. He just wants to charge everyone the same amount and keeps demanding that small apps pay the same as Google, because he’s pissed he wasn’t paying enough attention to notice what was going on.
And he’s scared shirtless because he’s had an easy run of reddit CEO, and now people are asking questions about his lack of vision and he’s afraid that no one will ever give him such an easy and lucrative job ever again. And $10 million in the bank plus whatever stock options he has may look like a lot of money to us peons, it really isn’t among the people he wants to keep hanging around with.
The one thing he’s doing half-smart is the spin game. That’s what that AMA was about, not to engage with the community, but to put out a dozen or so pre-written quotes that reddit could point to in interviews and say “look, here, this is what’s really going on, and we’ve tried.”
In the end, I think Huffman’s massive failings can be summarized in his comment that “[reddit will] continue to be profit-driven until profits arrive” - as if the arrival of profits is inevitable and no one needs to do anything to ensure their safe journey. Which seems to summarize his period as CEO: just coast along like normal and surely some profits will arrive - and then panic when the profits start arriving for companies with CEOs who do they job and attention to their business.
That’s what I don’t understand from the start. Why not just look who uses the API and charge based on that?
Google, you pay 10x per API call. ChatGPT, you pay also 10x. Random LLM, you pay 5x. Apollo, you 2x, random app with 1k downloads from the play store, you pay 0. Bumm.
Okay, not in this obvious way, because then they can complain for discrimination, but maybe some tiered one aimed against the big single-entity players. Also: per API key/user, not just per API key.
I’ve been thinking on this, and this is pure speculation, but – I keep thinking about what Christian said, where he’s already been paid by people who still have a year to go on their subscription and he can’t raise the price on them. I’d bet that Google and ChatGPT, etc, have some sort of basic contract they set up with reddit from before the AI developments this spring, saying that they get API access for [minimal cost] and that the contracts still have at least several months left to run.
So this spring is the great AI reveals by multiple companies, and everyone is saying “oh, hey, we loaded a bunch of data from reddit”. And now TPTB at reddit are all looking at Huffman, going, “oh, hey, I bet we made bank on that, let’s go ahead with that IPO!”. And Huffman is sitting there with egg on his face because he’s just been gliding along and now he’s had to admit that he gave everything away and has no idea how to make a profit, and the contracts with Google and ChatGPT and all the big boys with their big boy lawyers still have time left to run so he can’t get money from them.
So he turns around and says, "we’ll get money from all these other people using the API, we’ll charge them extortionate amounts of money so we’ll make some money there. And if they don’t pay up, we’ll be forcing people to use our own app and we can make sure they have lots of ads and promoted material so we’ll make money that way too!”
So basically he wasn’t paying attention until it was too late and now he’s scrambling for other sources of income to point to in order to save his job.
And now I’m thinking of all those programmers that he’s undoubtedly leaning on, telling them they have only two weeks to deliver on a vague suite of “mod tools” that reddit’s been repeatedly refusing to even look at for over a decade. Because that’s what a bad boss does: refuses to look ahead, refuses to listen to people who do look ahead, panics when there’s a foreseeable issue, refuses to listen to people who valid input into the issue, makes up a random answer that he swears will address every ill current and future, and then applies extreme pressure to the people who work for him in order to reach those (completely foreseeable and now extreme emergency) goals.
I’ll mention again that this is just a theory I’m working on, but it fits with what I’ve been seeing and hearing so far. I’m not sure exactly what changes he’ll be able to force through in the meantime, but I just don’t see Huffman having a job at reddit in another six months, probably sooner. And given the way he’s “led” the company and responded to this incident, I don’t see him getting another CEO job either in or out of the tech industry.
Why go through all that effort when you can just replace one CEO?
I doubt that it is just the CEO. With an IPO coming up, all the stakeholders and the board and the senior leadership are poised to make a shit ton of money. This whole thing is designed to make the company more attractive to investors so they are all on board.
Make a ton of money, or depending on how things go, lose a ton of money.
Pretty sure spez is making a ton of money at this point. He’s been working on Reddit for like 15 years and ,while I’m sure he’s managed to earn a nice paycheck for some of those years, he’s finally in reach of a big payout
I expect he will (because I’d do the same) sell his shares ASAP and disappear from public life
Executive compensation is often largely in company stock. There’s your incentive to stick around and fuck everyone in their peeholes for
increased shareholder valueyour own personal benefit.So, in other words, CEOs are just third-party sounding enthusiasts. I think I’ll refer to them that way from now on.
CEO stands for Cock Excavation Operator.
Or your incentive to IPO so you can get stock. Reddit doesn’t have any yet and Huffman’s getting huffy over it.
Insiders typically don’t lose money even if a company tanks after ipo. The ipo is a set price and it’s pretty common for insiders/other shareholders to dump their bags at that price while people biying at the ipo get fucked.
People keeping an eye on recent events at Reddit might be reconsidering that set price…
It’s beyond my understanding why someone would moderate a subreddit for free for a for-profit organization.
I thought moderators were paid or something. It’s literally working for free. I don’t get it.
Two reasons:
- The desire to shepherd a vibrant community of people around a subject that is important to you
- Dick swinging
Replacing a lot of mods at once is going to result in a lot more of the latter and eliminate a lot of the former.
Third and most likely reason: you got involved in the early days with something that was really small, but mushroomed to become something really big.
I would classify that as a subset of my first bullet point, but it’s not an unreasonable distinction.
It’s volunteer work, which some people enjoy. Much like being a volunteer firefighter or member of a local club. I have modded across Discord, Twitch and also Reddit (for a short amount of time) and there is a certain joy it brings you. You get to care for a forum in which people like you discuss your favorite topics. You get to keep your own community clean and happy. And having that power and responsibility does give one a lot of joy. Think about it like it’s parenting. Nobody is gonna pay you for having kids (in fact you’re gonna lose a bunch of money), but when they succeed in life it makes you extremely happy.
I used to be a volunteer moderator for a non-reddit site. I did it because I liked the place and wanted to keep the asshattery down to a dull roar so the people who weren’t shitposting would stick around.
They care about the topic; or they like the feeling of being in charge of thousands of people; or both.
I did it, albeit a very small community. I cared enough about the topic to give other people dealing with similar things some space to build a community. Mine was luckily mostly dead, since I don’t care about building a base or keeping it going, but it served well for its time. Anyone who thinks modding is anything but a labor of love doesn’t make for a very good mod.
This is why ive been saying the mods need to force the admins to remove them from the start. It would totally hamstring reddit
They’re not gonna replace all of them at once. Some admins will get assigned to work their way down the list (ranked by subscribers probably) and while this is going on I predict a lot of smaller subs are gonna falter resolving it.
People are already making separate subs so smaller ones might eventually get replaced.
They’re not gonna replace all of them at once
At this point it’d be interesting if all the moderation teams resigned at once, especially for the top hundred or so subs that want to remain private.
would be interesting to see. just open up and stop modding, except once every 24 hours or so. just say you’re busy IRL lol
There’s a difference between putting a new body in and putting a quality moderator in who’s doing it because that’s what they want to be doing.
I… Don’t think they realize how much work mods do, to both cultivate the community in their subs and to keep them from become a cesspool of society.
I say just let spez mod a spicy subreddit like WSB or dataisbeautiful. You haven’t seen adult individuals decend to throwing feces at one another until they start arguing about the appropriate scale for a graph. Or one of the truecrime subs like TrueCrimeDiscussion, where every comment hidden 40 comments deep can be a dox. 🤣
There are always power hungry people out there ready and willing to fill the roles. All they have to do is open the gates and let people apply.
Having bodies is not the same as having dedicated moderators. Moderating a public web forum is a thankless and time consuming task full of frustrations. Putting the wrong people in that position is a recipe for disaster.
But is it a recipe for things seeming ok enough to ipo and cash out cuz that’s all spez wants
Genuinely curious because I have no experience with modding: would it seem okay if a bunch of incapable people who don’t know how to moderate a very large sub got in there as mods? How long would it take for things to completely fall apart? (I guess - how long before it wouldn’t seem okay?)
Maybe they could build a bot to do it. It wouldn’t work but it might be funny to watch.
This is what has made me think they’ve likely given an ultimatum to the moderators to re-enable their subs “or else”, because they’re coming back thick and fast right now.
This will (if they get it right) reduce the number of moderators they will need to replace to get control of the remaining large subs. It would have been better if more mods took a stand. A lot of the larger subs are still private or restricted. So, we’ll see what happens I guess.
The problem with replacing a large number of mods is twofold. Finding enough competent (although maybe that’s not such a requirement) people to step into their shoes is just one. Another is that there’s no real way to hide this. Those people that might not have had a horse in the API race might have one in the “removing my sub’s favourite mod” race.
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Bad moderation is a recipe for desaster and can be the death of any site.
It’s not as easy as putting anyone in place of the mods that are protesting. Putting power-hungry unexperienced people in place of the old moderators may be one of the best ways to actually kill reddit (or any site for the matter)
I’ve seen it happen many times to count.
I wonder if people will deliberately take on mod roles to try and make Reddit worse and drive traffic to Lemmy/kbin.
