Forty-two percent of likely Iowa Republican caucusgoers said that former President Trump’s recent remarks about immigrants “poisoning the blood” of the country makes them more likely to support him…
Hey, can you read my thread with lennybird? I was in a good mood too. I was hoping to get them to clearly say they understood they (inadvertently) vilified mental illness and that it was wrong. I failed. thread
That is unfortunate, with a more clear picture, this looks more like someone that has chosen to allow mental health to be an excuse for poor behavior rather than a reason for it. I would argue this is equally as bad.
I do not argue mental health as an excuse, I have my struggles and set backs in that arena but it doesn’t give me permission to be an awful person, I do think there is a vulnerable population that can be prayed upon due to a tendency toward credulity, or having been relentlessly bullied that now they want to find a group to belong to, and in that group they want to find some form of secret knowledge that the masses are not aware of, like a secret shadow government that is really in charge. So when they are proven right they can have a great I told you so moment they have wanted all their life.
So again I say looking in from the outside mental illness often looks the same and is poorly understood if it is understood at all even by those that live with us and care for us. From the tone that op seems to be taking they are starting to feel piled up on and is shutting down to just definsiveness. I suggest perhaps they need exposure to more people and the stigma of mental illness may be at play. I am sure many people in their life has a struggle or even a diagnosis, but it is not appropriate to talk about so they may never know.
Sorry for rambling, just really have a lot of thought on this, and rarely get to talk about it. Very much a fascinating subject.
That’s cool; I’ll just ramble at you awhile. : ) I really want to say some things that I didn’t say in the thread.
To anyone reading this, there was a comment more or less assigning negative things to “all mental illness and bigots”. The author edited the comment after push back, but I didn’t think that was really sufficient. In this essay… (not memeing, gere we go)
What I wanted:
I don’t have a copy of what was said. It’s gone and I should be happy. BUT, I’m not. I want some acknowledgement that it is understood why that wording was awful and some assurance that attention will paid in the future. I’m basically describing an apology. It’s not, apologies have an acceptance stage that I’m willing to skip. I do not think it’s reasonable to hope all those with a mental illness accept the apology.
I did not explicitly ask for what I wanted. Honestly saying my piece and getting silence was expected.
What I got:
Despite editing my comment to reflect fair points, I do believe mental illness absolutely needs to be discussed more.
Ok, but you did not discuss it. You made a sweeping statement. It was worthless at best. Not a discussion. Why even say this to me.
The post continues by adding extraneous groups to the discussion. So now we have bigots, trumpers, the mentally ill, people exposed to lead, drug addicts, people with genetic conditions.
Now, I have no idea what to expect. I made a fuss about making sweeping statements about general groups, and now we have more people to vilify. I genuinely cannot tell if they simply not reading what I said, or are they listing people to line up against a wall? Only the author knows. I strongly suspected it’s the former. I still do, but less so.
But I did get confirmation, that no, they do not see my point. They do not realize how easily they are vilifying those with mental illness. Here’s what was said:
the fact remains that there is a deeper issue of mental illness that resides within the Republican ranks.
Is it wrong for a group to have a high concentration of people with mental disorders? I don’t think so. In fact, do you know what group has quite a high percentage? Therapy groups. Are they evil? What is that quote saying about Republicans that can’t logically similarly apply to therapy groups?
My Goal:
The real issue here that I did not realize how subtly I was referring to a rhetorical trick that was at the root of my complaint. It’s very similar to the motte-and-bailey fallacy. Say a hate preacher wants to convince their flock that gays are evil. (I’m going to switch to saying “homosexuals” because that’s how you are likely to hear this in the wild.) So instead, he just decries horrible acts of molesters. But the preacher never simply says “child molesters”; they sub in the phrase “homosexuals and child molesters”. That way, the audience will connect them. They won’t realize it, but their brain will wire a connection anyway.
This is the language I was fighting. My goal was to get this person to see that they were (unwittingly?) committing this rhetorical trick. I heard complaints that should be made of bigots instead made of “mental illness and bigots”. Don’t lump innocent motte in with a horrible bailey.
It is pretty likely that the author didn’t read my post. It seems they picked words to respond to instead of any ideas. Like I wasn’t really talking about guns or gay rights, but those words are kicked off the typing. The gun tangent was understandable, but I said nothing about homosexuality per se, and they say
There is nothing explicitly wrong with being homoexual.
Which again, true and ick. I tried to stick an implied parenthetical “or implicitly either” in there to kinda fix the ick, but what does it mean for something to be implicitly wrong? But I knew better than to bring this up. Not the fight to have.
The Conclusion:
I simply wanted them to avow or disavow the paraphased comment: “It is nice that I can now identify all mental illness and bigots”. I expected them to see vilification now. And I think they did. In fact, they added some more calling them “people who proudly broadcast their own ignorance and lack of appeal to reason and moral standards”.
So I guess that is where they are comfortable leaving it. I really think there is something about the mental illness label that makes them afraid of people. It’s sad.
But who knows. They claim they “wrote very, very clearly: Trump supporters” when I asked what group they were talking about. Obviously, they didn’t mean people with mental illness, but again, they did bring up bigots, trumpers, the mentally ill, people exposed to lead, drug addicts, people with genetic conditions. So writing isn’t their strong suit. You did not “write” that. It was not clear. It was not very clear. And it surely wasn’t very, very clear. But keep writing “very” in there. I might be fooled that it was clear eventually. Maybe they genuinely don’t see my point. But I doubt it. There is clear resentment of the mentally ill.
I can see your point, and for my part understand your grievance, however I think you are asking too much and expect to much. This is a stranger on the Internet talking to a stranger on the Internet exactly like you and I. You have absolutely no reason to care about my opinion about this, and likely won’t.
I want you to know I understand, I really do and I would have the same type of reaction on other days. For some reason my wound isn’t so raw today. I hated seeing that statement it was painful, just like when someone in my family uses the r word at me. I don’t know if maybe the fight in me has just started to die on this one.
I am autistic and homosexual with a list of mental health conditions that come from a lifetime of masking both of them plus trauma and som other shit, wanting dignity is exhausting, I don’t know your situation but I am guessing you fully understand the stress of looking over your should for fear of the consequences of someone noticing something you can’t turn off.
I hope you don’t think I have been trying to argue, I am more just wanting someone to talk to, if I added to your frustrations I am sorry! Truly!
Lol, that’s the best part. I’m not even mad. I’m just writing words for readers. I know that my expectations wouldn’t be met. Of course not. “Expecting” was the wrong word to use. It was more hope.
I just saw a transgression (hopefully a micro one), and thought, “hey, I got time and feel like writing.” I just looped you in because I thought it might benefit both of our headspaces. Hope I was right.
You were very right, if only because I needed the conversation, but honestly having such a slight difference of opinions and not letting it blow way out of proportion felt good too. I don’t get to really talk often.
I gained a lot today, and out of anything I hope you got something, I take heart in knowing you were not realistically expecting a whole change from them. I hope a seed was planted and perhaps a heart was softened.
That’s exactly your problem. You understood that they had no ill intentions, but you still had to spend time badgering them and going after them to prove a point.
You could have chosen to interpret their post in a way that didn’t offend you, but you chose to get offended, and then you try to make them look like the asshole for not bending over backwards when you “hurt yourself in your confusion”.
I never said I was offended. I said the language vilifies people will mental illnesses.
I don’t know why it is inappropriate to try to prove a point. And no, I don’t know they had no ill intentions. I was hoping that the language was inadvertently hurtful. After the discussion, I honestly feel that the other party does in fact harbor some toxic views of people who are mentally ill. I was hurt in disappointment, not confusion. I was confused why one couldn’t disavow something so simple. I don’t know if I’d rather have the confusion or disappointment.
I’m not choosing an interpretation either. Do you know what was said?
Hey, can you read my thread with lennybird? I was in a good mood too. I was hoping to get them to clearly say they understood they (inadvertently) vilified mental illness and that it was wrong. I failed. thread
That is unfortunate, with a more clear picture, this looks more like someone that has chosen to allow mental health to be an excuse for poor behavior rather than a reason for it. I would argue this is equally as bad.
I do not argue mental health as an excuse, I have my struggles and set backs in that arena but it doesn’t give me permission to be an awful person, I do think there is a vulnerable population that can be prayed upon due to a tendency toward credulity, or having been relentlessly bullied that now they want to find a group to belong to, and in that group they want to find some form of secret knowledge that the masses are not aware of, like a secret shadow government that is really in charge. So when they are proven right they can have a great I told you so moment they have wanted all their life.
So again I say looking in from the outside mental illness often looks the same and is poorly understood if it is understood at all even by those that live with us and care for us. From the tone that op seems to be taking they are starting to feel piled up on and is shutting down to just definsiveness. I suggest perhaps they need exposure to more people and the stigma of mental illness may be at play. I am sure many people in their life has a struggle or even a diagnosis, but it is not appropriate to talk about so they may never know.
Sorry for rambling, just really have a lot of thought on this, and rarely get to talk about it. Very much a fascinating subject.
That’s cool; I’ll just ramble at you awhile. : ) I really want to say some things that I didn’t say in the thread.
To anyone reading this, there was a comment more or less assigning negative things to “all mental illness and bigots”. The author edited the comment after push back, but I didn’t think that was really sufficient. In this essay… (not memeing, gere we go)
What I wanted: I don’t have a copy of what was said. It’s gone and I should be happy. BUT, I’m not. I want some acknowledgement that it is understood why that wording was awful and some assurance that attention will paid in the future. I’m basically describing an apology. It’s not, apologies have an acceptance stage that I’m willing to skip. I do not think it’s reasonable to hope all those with a mental illness accept the apology.
I did not explicitly ask for what I wanted. Honestly saying my piece and getting silence was expected.
What I got:
Ok, but you did not discuss it. You made a sweeping statement. It was worthless at best. Not a discussion. Why even say this to me.
The post continues by adding extraneous groups to the discussion. So now we have bigots, trumpers, the mentally ill, people exposed to lead, drug addicts, people with genetic conditions.
Now, I have no idea what to expect. I made a fuss about making sweeping statements about general groups, and now we have more people to vilify. I genuinely cannot tell if they simply not reading what I said, or are they listing people to line up against a wall? Only the author knows. I strongly suspected it’s the former. I still do, but less so.
But I did get confirmation, that no, they do not see my point. They do not realize how easily they are vilifying those with mental illness. Here’s what was said:
Is it wrong for a group to have a high concentration of people with mental disorders? I don’t think so. In fact, do you know what group has quite a high percentage? Therapy groups. Are they evil? What is that quote saying about Republicans that can’t logically similarly apply to therapy groups?
My Goal:
The real issue here that I did not realize how subtly I was referring to a rhetorical trick that was at the root of my complaint. It’s very similar to the motte-and-bailey fallacy. Say a hate preacher wants to convince their flock that gays are evil. (I’m going to switch to saying “homosexuals” because that’s how you are likely to hear this in the wild.) So instead, he just decries horrible acts of molesters. But the preacher never simply says “child molesters”; they sub in the phrase “homosexuals and child molesters”. That way, the audience will connect them. They won’t realize it, but their brain will wire a connection anyway.
This is the language I was fighting. My goal was to get this person to see that they were (unwittingly?) committing this rhetorical trick. I heard complaints that should be made of bigots instead made of “mental illness and bigots”. Don’t lump innocent motte in with a horrible bailey.
It is pretty likely that the author didn’t read my post. It seems they picked words to respond to instead of any ideas. Like I wasn’t really talking about guns or gay rights, but those words are kicked off the typing. The gun tangent was understandable, but I said nothing about homosexuality per se, and they say
Which again, true and ick. I tried to stick an implied parenthetical “or implicitly either” in there to kinda fix the ick, but what does it mean for something to be implicitly wrong? But I knew better than to bring this up. Not the fight to have.
The Conclusion:
I simply wanted them to avow or disavow the paraphased comment: “It is nice that I can now identify all mental illness and bigots”. I expected them to see vilification now. And I think they did. In fact, they added some more calling them “people who proudly broadcast their own ignorance and lack of appeal to reason and moral standards”.
So I guess that is where they are comfortable leaving it. I really think there is something about the mental illness label that makes them afraid of people. It’s sad.
But who knows. They claim they “wrote very, very clearly: Trump supporters” when I asked what group they were talking about. Obviously, they didn’t mean people with mental illness, but again, they did bring up bigots, trumpers, the mentally ill, people exposed to lead, drug addicts, people with genetic conditions. So writing isn’t their strong suit. You did not “write” that. It was not clear. It was not very clear. And it surely wasn’t very, very clear. But keep writing “very” in there. I might be fooled that it was clear eventually. Maybe they genuinely don’t see my point. But I doubt it. There is clear resentment of the mentally ill.
I can see your point, and for my part understand your grievance, however I think you are asking too much and expect to much. This is a stranger on the Internet talking to a stranger on the Internet exactly like you and I. You have absolutely no reason to care about my opinion about this, and likely won’t.
I want you to know I understand, I really do and I would have the same type of reaction on other days. For some reason my wound isn’t so raw today. I hated seeing that statement it was painful, just like when someone in my family uses the r word at me. I don’t know if maybe the fight in me has just started to die on this one.
I am autistic and homosexual with a list of mental health conditions that come from a lifetime of masking both of them plus trauma and som other shit, wanting dignity is exhausting, I don’t know your situation but I am guessing you fully understand the stress of looking over your should for fear of the consequences of someone noticing something you can’t turn off.
I hope you don’t think I have been trying to argue, I am more just wanting someone to talk to, if I added to your frustrations I am sorry! Truly!
Lol, that’s the best part. I’m not even mad. I’m just writing words for readers. I know that my expectations wouldn’t be met. Of course not. “Expecting” was the wrong word to use. It was more hope.
I just saw a transgression (hopefully a micro one), and thought, “hey, I got time and feel like writing.” I just looped you in because I thought it might benefit both of our headspaces. Hope I was right.
You were very right, if only because I needed the conversation, but honestly having such a slight difference of opinions and not letting it blow way out of proportion felt good too. I don’t get to really talk often.
I gained a lot today, and out of anything I hope you got something, I take heart in knowing you were not realistically expecting a whole change from them. I hope a seed was planted and perhaps a heart was softened.
Thanks for the engagement today.
That’s exactly your problem. You understood that they had no ill intentions, but you still had to spend time badgering them and going after them to prove a point.
You could have chosen to interpret their post in a way that didn’t offend you, but you chose to get offended, and then you try to make them look like the asshole for not bending over backwards when you “hurt yourself in your confusion”.
I never said I was offended. I said the language vilifies people will mental illnesses.
I don’t know why it is inappropriate to try to prove a point. And no, I don’t know they had no ill intentions. I was hoping that the language was inadvertently hurtful. After the discussion, I honestly feel that the other party does in fact harbor some toxic views of people who are mentally ill. I was hurt in disappointment, not confusion. I was confused why one couldn’t disavow something so simple. I don’t know if I’d rather have the confusion or disappointment.
I’m not choosing an interpretation either. Do you know what was said?