These are situations where police enforce rules for the better of all.
There is more to being a police than just muscle.
The police in my country held siege to our parliement building to remember our politicians and government the police is sworn to uphold and defend the country and constitution, not governments and politicians.
Counterfeiting is investigated by the FBI, drug trafficking prevention (targeted at the source, such as cartels) is handled by the DEA, human trafficking—FBI, poaching is monitored by fish and game.
There are times when a cop may have the ability to do some good now and again, but a key part of the job is harassing homeless people, busting young black guys for having some coke in their pockets, and sitting on the side of the road getting paid to aim a speed gun for a few hours. Whatever notion your friend had of being a hero is more likely to be found in almost any other law enforcement agency than the bottom level flatfoots we call the police.
And by this sentence alone, I understand you didn’t paid attention to what I wrote.
I understand americans make up the bulk of Lemmy users but - for crying out loud! - there is more on this freaking space time faring rock than that trench coat nation.
Do try to broaden your horizons. Read a little. Watch non american media and shows. Get your head out of your ass, while you are at it!
Even as an American this irritates me! There are so many more ways of doing things and living than what we have here. I was fortunate enough to live in a different country for a few years and I’d really recommend it to anyone (especially young people that haven’t put down roots as much yet) in order to gain some perspective and broaden your horizons.
The fact of the matter is that police sign up (i.e. volunteer to do this for pay) to allow themselves to be ordered to do anything including using lethal force against other people they do not know, to ensure the authoritarians in charge get their way.
The fact that a few nice individuals are deluded, were mislead, got stuck, or have hope they can somehow change the situation, this fact remains true.
I knew a cop too, I was friends with his daughter for many years. He seemed a nice guy from what I saw. She told me about how he abused her growing up and yet she still thought he was the greatest man to ever live and dated guys just like him.
My country threw a dictatorship less than 50 years. I was born and raised during the early years of the new democracy.
Back then, basic requirements for joining the police was being able to read and write; coming from the military, especially from the army, was a guaranteed entry.
People were afraid and instilled fear of the police into their children. Really bad times.
Fast forward to the 2000’s and a new generation of police is entering service. Being a former military is not a guaranteed entry and can even prove to be a detracting factor. New candidates have to pass aptitude tests, evaluations, screenings. Need to have the mandatory schooling years (by then already 12 years, equivalent to american high school). And undergo a grueling physical and theoretical training: one year.
When the new generation hits the streets, the kind of “cop” you describe was washed out, by their own comrades, because being a police meant being a trustworthy figure, someone any person can approach for help and aid, especially children.
Are there any bad apples? Obviously. In the same way you can have bad agents in any profession. Even the best cloth get stains. But you can trust a police officer in my country.
A police is mandated by law to salute a civilian when aproaching one and is obligated to present identification if requested for and even take the breathalizer test if you demand it.
A police officer also has the freedom and obligation to go against orders they understand as against the law, good social standing and moral and can take action against superior in court of law, where hierarchy means nothing.
A very superficial analysis of what being a police agent in the US tells me you have a militarized police, unfit and untrained to deal with people, and ignorant of law, except that what can be delivered by the pulling of a trigger and brutality.
That was our police, 50 years ago.
Your average cop here would get beat up by their comrades and thrown in jail, assuming they would made it through the evaluation.
Again, the US is not the world, not a good example on any front and even less when it comes to civil rights and police work.
There is much that you are probably unaware of – prior to 2020, many if not most people in the U.S. including myself were unaware of just how problematic the police were. I’m not poor or black and had no direct experience, I thought there were a few bad apples in Compton, CA and NYC etc but assumed most cops were decent and just trying to keep the peace.
If you are correct and your police are not currently fucked up, I think your situation is temporary at best. Many things go through a similar cycle, they start out apparently working great or at least good enough and either the problems become more visible as you become more aware, or they get corrupted over time. Think about how many small companies (ahem, Google) start out with noble intentions and full of good people, but because of the profit motive seek power, and become corrupt. Think about taking a new job with energy and optimism and realizing over months it’s not what you thought because of entrenched power.
Make no mistake, if it’s not already this way, the laws will be changed in favor of the police as their unions get more powerful and their ability to get friends into high place improves. As the number of bad apples comes to outnumber the good ones, any real freedom or obligation to go against orders or do the right thing and blow a whistle disappears. As the number of atrocities that must be covered up grows, the mechanisms become darker and darker (just like in the Catholic Church) and the people involved more and more sick in the head.
Any time you have a concentration of power you will attract those that want power. It may take a couple decades but the “good cops” you have now will be replaced and then you will have little recourse to correct the problem because you will have a heavily armed, well funded gang full of sadists with a license to kill and powerful unions to protect them.
Authority is like a pile of steaming shit and psychopaths and sadists are like flies. This effectively leaves each society with a choice to make:
Make piles of shit (positions of power) and just deal with the flies and the consequences (i.e. eventual fascism or something like it)
Make piles of shit and attempt to keep the flies away (this has never in history worked for more than a generation or so)
Don’t make piles of shit (arguably how humanity lived for 200,000 year prior to the emergence of state power) and live a life with few flies, nothing you can’t swat away. This is called anarchism.
Police have unions for negotiating better conditions but they don’t displace power to the polices: police does not have right of strike. At best, what police officers can do is a strike of zeal, where they overlook most situations except for the most grievous.
This implies a speeding ticket will not get written but a bank robbery will be dealt with.
Again, the US is no example for anything, and even less for this.
Police is not a for-profit organization; it’s a pillar of the democratic state and as such is moved by a mission not an production objective, which some ingenious politians and high ranking officers have tried to do, with horrible results, like police agents openly denouncing it to the public.
The checks and balances you fear will be knocked down are so scattered, it would take the complete dismantling of our entire country to remove it. Just recently, it was eliminated a specialized police tasked with immigration and border control and the back lash has been immense: people want specialized agents for specialized functions, regardless the previously dismantled force being disbanded for serious and proven cases of abuse of power and corruption, which led to arrests.
To prevent one force to feel unchecked we have three different polices, a plethora of specialized agencies and a central investigation department directly under the orders of the republic prosecutor. Too many people checking on too many people. This model works so well, even politians have been connected to serious corruption schemes lately.
We solved our war on drugs by removing the crime frame from consumption and carry for personal use, thus releasing police resources to contend with real traficking, not petty matters.
people want specialized agents for specialized functions
All of us have grown up in authoritarian systems, trained to look to the state for answers and safety. It’s not surprising that people trained to look to police for safety and penalized for protecting themselves “want” police of some sort.
Take notes. Might be useful to someone.
I never said might isn’t useful, it’s incredibly useful to those looking to coerce others. I’m saying it’s the desire to coerce others that is the problem, and law enforcement is the muscle behind the coercion. What reasons are there to coerce another that are not fucked up?
There is an ugly backdrop of “bad”, “coercion”, “oppression” and “authoritarian” to this conversation.
And while I try to concede, to my hability, your good points and ilustrate steps have been taken to remove or diminish points of concern, in an effort to advance for something better, there seems to be an ever deeper entrenching on your part to build up the same points.
The state, which authority emanates from the people, does have the monopoly of force, which is a tool to ensure peace and stability inside a society looking to get rid of the need of it.
Your stance, to my understanding, veers towards an ideal anarchism, a philosophy I support myself.
But like any other social system, anarchy is affected by bad actors, motivated by selfish motives like indifference for their similar, greed or the simple appeal of basic violence against their fellow.
How are we supposed to deal with these? Are we all to become vigilantes? Allow angry mobs to apply “justice”? Or should we create special groups, prepared to deal daily with this kind of situation, to make our best collective effort to ensure “force” does not become “violence”?
You are the state. You, your neighbour, your community, your district, etc. You live in a crooked system you have allowed to flourish. Do you expect change to happen by spontaneous generation? Your default stance is of distrust. The “man” is out to get you. Guess what? You are the “man”. You trapped yourself by your own actions.
Your reality is not universal. That is what I’ve been trying to pass across. Regardless a perfect system not existing, better than what you experience is possible and exists.
I have friends in police that joined out of spirit of mission.
Road safety, counterfeiting detection, contraband, drug traficking, slavery, violent crime, environmental damage, poaching…
These are situations where police enforce rules for the better of all.
There is more to being a police than just muscle.
The police in my country held siege to our parliement building to remember our politicians and government the police is sworn to uphold and defend the country and constitution, not governments and politicians.
Ah yes joining the fascist organization to make the world better place.
I can’t find it but there was a nice Finnish comic where a guy joins nazi army in early 1900s and says “I’m changing the system from inside”
Edit: found it
If your friend is in America:
Counterfeiting is investigated by the FBI, drug trafficking prevention (targeted at the source, such as cartels) is handled by the DEA, human trafficking—FBI, poaching is monitored by fish and game.
There are times when a cop may have the ability to do some good now and again, but a key part of the job is harassing homeless people, busting young black guys for having some coke in their pockets, and sitting on the side of the road getting paid to aim a speed gun for a few hours. Whatever notion your friend had of being a hero is more likely to be found in almost any other law enforcement agency than the bottom level flatfoots we call the police.
And by this sentence alone, I understand you didn’t paid attention to what I wrote.
I understand americans make up the bulk of Lemmy users but - for crying out loud! - there is more on this freaking space time faring rock than that trench coat nation.
Do try to broaden your horizons. Read a little. Watch non american media and shows. Get your head out of your ass, while you are at it!
America is not the world.
Even as an American this irritates me! There are so many more ways of doing things and living than what we have here. I was fortunate enough to live in a different country for a few years and I’d really recommend it to anyone (especially young people that haven’t put down roots as much yet) in order to gain some perspective and broaden your horizons.
The fact of the matter is that police sign up (i.e. volunteer to do this for pay) to allow themselves to be ordered to do anything including using lethal force against other people they do not know, to ensure the authoritarians in charge get their way.
The fact that a few nice individuals are deluded, were mislead, got stuck, or have hope they can somehow change the situation, this fact remains true.
I knew a cop too, I was friends with his daughter for many years. He seemed a nice guy from what I saw. She told me about how he abused her growing up and yet she still thought he was the greatest man to ever live and dated guys just like him.
Let me give you some context.
My country threw a dictatorship less than 50 years. I was born and raised during the early years of the new democracy.
Back then, basic requirements for joining the police was being able to read and write; coming from the military, especially from the army, was a guaranteed entry.
People were afraid and instilled fear of the police into their children. Really bad times.
Fast forward to the 2000’s and a new generation of police is entering service. Being a former military is not a guaranteed entry and can even prove to be a detracting factor. New candidates have to pass aptitude tests, evaluations, screenings. Need to have the mandatory schooling years (by then already 12 years, equivalent to american high school). And undergo a grueling physical and theoretical training: one year.
When the new generation hits the streets, the kind of “cop” you describe was washed out, by their own comrades, because being a police meant being a trustworthy figure, someone any person can approach for help and aid, especially children.
Are there any bad apples? Obviously. In the same way you can have bad agents in any profession. Even the best cloth get stains. But you can trust a police officer in my country.
A police is mandated by law to salute a civilian when aproaching one and is obligated to present identification if requested for and even take the breathalizer test if you demand it.
A police officer also has the freedom and obligation to go against orders they understand as against the law, good social standing and moral and can take action against superior in court of law, where hierarchy means nothing.
A very superficial analysis of what being a police agent in the US tells me you have a militarized police, unfit and untrained to deal with people, and ignorant of law, except that what can be delivered by the pulling of a trigger and brutality.
That was our police, 50 years ago.
Your average cop here would get beat up by their comrades and thrown in jail, assuming they would made it through the evaluation.
Again, the US is not the world, not a good example on any front and even less when it comes to civil rights and police work.
There is much that you are probably unaware of – prior to 2020, many if not most people in the U.S. including myself were unaware of just how problematic the police were. I’m not poor or black and had no direct experience, I thought there were a few bad apples in Compton, CA and NYC etc but assumed most cops were decent and just trying to keep the peace.
If you are correct and your police are not currently fucked up, I think your situation is temporary at best. Many things go through a similar cycle, they start out apparently working great or at least good enough and either the problems become more visible as you become more aware, or they get corrupted over time. Think about how many small companies (ahem, Google) start out with noble intentions and full of good people, but because of the profit motive seek power, and become corrupt. Think about taking a new job with energy and optimism and realizing over months it’s not what you thought because of entrenched power.
Make no mistake, if it’s not already this way, the laws will be changed in favor of the police as their unions get more powerful and their ability to get friends into high place improves. As the number of bad apples comes to outnumber the good ones, any real freedom or obligation to go against orders or do the right thing and blow a whistle disappears. As the number of atrocities that must be covered up grows, the mechanisms become darker and darker (just like in the Catholic Church) and the people involved more and more sick in the head.
Any time you have a concentration of power you will attract those that want power. It may take a couple decades but the “good cops” you have now will be replaced and then you will have little recourse to correct the problem because you will have a heavily armed, well funded gang full of sadists with a license to kill and powerful unions to protect them.
Authority is like a pile of steaming shit and psychopaths and sadists are like flies. This effectively leaves each society with a choice to make:
Make piles of shit (positions of power) and just deal with the flies and the consequences (i.e. eventual fascism or something like it)
Make piles of shit and attempt to keep the flies away (this has never in history worked for more than a generation or so)
Don’t make piles of shit (arguably how humanity lived for 200,000 year prior to the emergence of state power) and live a life with few flies, nothing you can’t swat away. This is called anarchism.
Police have unions for negotiating better conditions but they don’t displace power to the polices: police does not have right of strike. At best, what police officers can do is a strike of zeal, where they overlook most situations except for the most grievous.
This implies a speeding ticket will not get written but a bank robbery will be dealt with.
Again, the US is no example for anything, and even less for this.
Police is not a for-profit organization; it’s a pillar of the democratic state and as such is moved by a mission not an production objective, which some ingenious politians and high ranking officers have tried to do, with horrible results, like police agents openly denouncing it to the public.
The checks and balances you fear will be knocked down are so scattered, it would take the complete dismantling of our entire country to remove it. Just recently, it was eliminated a specialized police tasked with immigration and border control and the back lash has been immense: people want specialized agents for specialized functions, regardless the previously dismantled force being disbanded for serious and proven cases of abuse of power and corruption, which led to arrests.
To prevent one force to feel unchecked we have three different polices, a plethora of specialized agencies and a central investigation department directly under the orders of the republic prosecutor. Too many people checking on too many people. This model works so well, even politians have been connected to serious corruption schemes lately.
We solved our war on drugs by removing the crime frame from consumption and carry for personal use, thus releasing police resources to contend with real traficking, not petty matters.
Take notes. Might be useful to someone.
All of us have grown up in authoritarian systems, trained to look to the state for answers and safety. It’s not surprising that people trained to look to police for safety and penalized for protecting themselves “want” police of some sort.
I never said might isn’t useful, it’s incredibly useful to those looking to coerce others. I’m saying it’s the desire to coerce others that is the problem, and law enforcement is the muscle behind the coercion. What reasons are there to coerce another that are not fucked up?
There is an ugly backdrop of “bad”, “coercion”, “oppression” and “authoritarian” to this conversation.
And while I try to concede, to my hability, your good points and ilustrate steps have been taken to remove or diminish points of concern, in an effort to advance for something better, there seems to be an ever deeper entrenching on your part to build up the same points.
The state, which authority emanates from the people, does have the monopoly of force, which is a tool to ensure peace and stability inside a society looking to get rid of the need of it.
Your stance, to my understanding, veers towards an ideal anarchism, a philosophy I support myself.
But like any other social system, anarchy is affected by bad actors, motivated by selfish motives like indifference for their similar, greed or the simple appeal of basic violence against their fellow.
How are we supposed to deal with these? Are we all to become vigilantes? Allow angry mobs to apply “justice”? Or should we create special groups, prepared to deal daily with this kind of situation, to make our best collective effort to ensure “force” does not become “violence”?
You are the state. You, your neighbour, your community, your district, etc. You live in a crooked system you have allowed to flourish. Do you expect change to happen by spontaneous generation? Your default stance is of distrust. The “man” is out to get you. Guess what? You are the “man”. You trapped yourself by your own actions.
Your reality is not universal. That is what I’ve been trying to pass across. Regardless a perfect system not existing, better than what you experience is possible and exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lHPSBOvfnU
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=3lHPSBOvfnU
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.