Is this a “the right can’t meme” thing? Liberals are opposed to the current Russia-ukraine war and Israeli-palestine war and are currently supporting the newest civil rights movement.
Nah I think it’s just the same snake-in-the-grass right wing propaganda bullshit that infects every leftist space online to sow complacency and disempower us with apathy by trying to convince us that the comparative left-ish-leaning party is the same or worse than the right so as to maintain the hold on power the right has. It’s bullshit anti-leftist wolf-in-sheep’s-clothing rhetoric. Same as it always was.
I don’t know OP, or the OOP, but I read this as criticizing liberals from the left which is something many leftists engage in all the time, I know I do
(Before I type all of this, important caveat: I am only going to be using “liberal” in the American context, meaning a milquetoast democrat. Save all of your “bUt AcTuAlLy ClAsSiCaL lIbErAlIsM” for where it’s actually fucking relevant; don’t bring that shit to me)
Yes, but you do it mostly because you’ve been taken in by these wolves. Obviously critique and push actual leftism on liberals and Democrats, but the leftism tribalism absolutely benefits the right.
Liberals aren’t leftists and we shouldn’t be complacent and settle for the liberal Democrat platform, but we also have to acknowledge that given the options the Democrats are absolutely the current harm-reductive choice. And importantly, unlike the fucking chudshits on the right, liberals are the demographic that can actually be reasoned with, educated, and brought into the light.
Anyone trying to tell you associating with or attempting to convert liberals is a waste of time is somebody who is only interested in stifling leftist growth.
You don’t have to agree with them, but conflating them with the wastes of flesh on the right is disingenuous as fuck as absolutely motivated by agenda, either intentionally or unintentionally as matter of coercion.
Exactly there’s leftists in America but no left political power, and you can’t win as a leftist because it’s like, “oh you don’t support the government that supports a fascist genocide? Well that’s how we get a fascist government!” When liberals shame leftists, who they probably agree with on every issue, for the failures of the Democrat party, I consider that more of a confession. Shaming your political allies for not being hypocritical enough rather than the party that doesn’t deliver is a pathetic position to be in.
The left isn’t stupid and understands strategic voting and the current state of US politics. Liberals are so quick to be condescending and love to liberal-splain how “if you don’t vote Democrat we get Trump” ad infinitum. As if leftists don’t understand the most basic logic. A leftist might unhappily vote Democrat out of pure strategic interest vs a liberal might take grandiose pride in their Democrat vote.
It’s hard to not make fun of liberals from the left, but I find a lot of my generation are liberals by default and friendly to more leftist viewpoints. The left has little to no representation so I don’t blame people for not being exposed to it. My parent’s generation is a lost cause because of cold war propaganda, and the most staunch liberals I know are well-to-do genx.
When I was young I thought liberal was just “not right wing” or just the morally correct political position. It took some more life experience to understand what the liberal attitude and mindset really was.
The original sin of the left is rejecting liberalism, because liberalism is the key to political agency. It’s why socialist revolutions never escape their dictatorship.
They’ll downvote because this message is a threat to campists. But at the end of the day, the way forward is liberal socialism.
You may be right, but I was giving OOP even less credit, assuming this was someone on the right making a bullshit, obvious strawman with others on the right as the intended audience, knowing that any semblance of accuracy didn’t matter in the slightest. They don’t care if it’s obvious nonsense, if it makes them feel good to repeat it, that’s all that matters.
Classical liberalism is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism which advocates free market and laissez-faire economics; and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech.
Since I can’t be bothered I had Chatgpt generate a response
Understanding conservatism as a subset of liberalism requires a nuanced view of the historical and philosophical development of these ideologies. Initially, these terms might seem contradictory, but under a broader definition of liberalism, conservatism can be considered a variant or an offshoot.
Liberalism, in its broadest historical sense, refers to a range of ideas centered around the importance of individual liberty, the rule of law, and, often, limited government. This broad category emerged during the Enlightenment and was instrumental in shaping the modern Western political and social order. Classical liberalism, in particular, emphasizes individual freedom, economic freedom, and minimal state intervention.
Conservatism, while often positioned in opposition to liberalism (especially in its progressive or social liberal forms), can be seen as a subset of liberalism in the context of this broader historical perspective. This view holds when considering that conservatism in Western political thought often shares with liberalism a commitment to certain fundamental principles such as the rule of law, individual rights (although conservatism places a stronger emphasis on communal values and traditions), and, frequently, the free market.
However, conservatism diverges from liberalism in its emphasis on tradition, authority, and often a skepticism of rapid social change. Conservative liberalism, or liberal conservatism, is a term used to describe ideologies that blend liberal values (like economic freedom) with conservative stances (such as an emphasis on traditional social structures).
In summary, while conservatism and liberalism are distinct in their traditional definitions and core philosophies, conservatism can be viewed as a subset of liberalism in the context of a broader, historical understanding of liberalism. This perspective sees both ideologies sharing some fundamental values but differing significantly in their approach to tradition, social change, and the balance between individual rights and communal responsibilities.
“Liberal” means differently to the left (socialists and far-left to be precise). In the classical sense, a “liberal” promotes individualism, free market and private property, which many on the far-left rejects.
Classical liberalism is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism which advocates free market and laissez-faire economics; and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech. Classical liberalism, contrary to liberal branches like social liberalism, looks more negatively on social policies, taxation and the state involvement in the lives of individuals, and it advocates deregulation.
You obviously did not know why “liberal” is a pejorative term used by those from the left, of all the people you would least expect to do so based from contemporary (mis)understanding.
If someone was opposed to a war they wouldn’t want to contribute to it. I don’t see anyone saying they want to fight or bomb Israel but lots of people do want to fight and bomb Russia.
Liberals don’t want to contribute to the wars, they’re against both the Russian invasion and the IDF atrocities, as well as the hamas atrocities.
The difference between Israel and Russia is that Israel is responding to a terrorist attack in a horrific way with 70 years of animosity and attacks behind their retaliation, while Russia is breaking treaties and trying to invade and steal a country that they have already stolen part of back in 2014.
While liberals are calling out for Israel to pull back and stop the atrocities, they’re content at watching Ukraine kick Russia’s ass for the illegal russian invasion and attempted second annexation of Ukrainian territory.
That’s just the same thing in more paragraphs. Unless you want to stop the contribution of money and weapons to Ukraine you are in support of the war. Nowhere did I say that’s a bad thing by the way, I just like things to be accurate and I’ve been watching the meaning of “anti war” turn into a meaningless label that people feel like they need to put on themselves to be a good person.
If you support a war then you support a war and it sounds like you do support the Ukraine war. Do you want your country to give money, weapons, and people (aka support) to Ukraine or do you not?
You appear to have a very over-simplified view here. Supporting a country that is being invaded is not the same as supporting the war itself. Supporting a war specifically implies someone supports the aggressing country and their goals. Supporting Ukraine does not mean someone also supports Russia invading Ukraine.
Acting like anyone who thinks countries should be allowed to defend themselves from invaders is pro-war is a truly terrible take.
Your flawed argument is that the soldiers fighting Nazis were pro-war. No, they were anti illegal genocide, invasion and annexation.
On the separate narrow note you’re trying to equivocate with false narratives only you are putting forth, I personally want Ukraine to receive as much support as possible, because it’s radically weakening a violent hostile country that has already proven it is hell bent on stealing territory.
Proving to the world that Russia is not a threat militarily and removing any further capacity for violent Russian hostility for decades has been a great investment.
Liberals have come down hard in uncritical support of the nazi militias in Ukraine and on the Israeli side of the Palestinian struggle for freedom. Both are the pro-war stances.
Liberals have been against the Russian invasion from day one, and Russia is driving that war.
Most people have been ignorant of the Israel and Palestine conflicts until recently, and most western media glorifies the IDF because it’s a stabilizing democratic force in a notoriously anti-west region, but liberals are all upset with the current Palestinian genocide.
There are liberal pro-Palestinian anti-hamas civil rights movement right now.
I’m against both current wars and for the current civil rights movements, so you’re 0 for 3 there.
By your logic, you’re the lib the meme is talking about.
Your Russian propaganda is b*******, russia invaded and tried to annex the rest of Ukraine the same way that they annexed Crimea because Putin is a cowardly, greedy dictator.
And you’re just agreeing with me about the IDF, so thanks, I guess.
You’re close about Putin using a baseless pretense to invade and steal further territory from Ukraine, wrong about the Russian-Ukrainian peacetime relationship, and you haven’t mentioned that putin also disarmed Ukraine in a nuclear anti-arms treaty to ensure ukraine couldn’t fight back before putin broke the treaty, annexed crimea and then invaded a second time when nobody stood up to him the first time.
But hey, you got the names correct. Mostly.
Two, You’re agreeing with me about the IDF because I condemned the Palestinian genocide by the IDF. You, then, ostensibly condemned the Palestinian genocide.
This part might be difficult for you to follow, but if you condemn the same thing I already condemned, you are agreeing with me.
Lol the one person that gets the post is downvoted.
Hey libs, we’re talking about you wanting to send hundreds of billions of dollars to literal Nazis that we helped move into power by overthrowing Ukraine’s government.
Is this a “the right can’t meme” thing? Liberals are opposed to the current Russia-ukraine war and Israeli-palestine war and are currently supporting the newest civil rights movement.
Nah I think it’s just the same snake-in-the-grass right wing propaganda bullshit that infects every leftist space online to sow complacency and disempower us with apathy by trying to convince us that the comparative left-ish-leaning party is the same or worse than the right so as to maintain the hold on power the right has. It’s bullshit anti-leftist wolf-in-sheep’s-clothing rhetoric. Same as it always was.
Edit: typos.
I don’t know OP, or the OOP, but I read this as criticizing liberals from the left which is something many leftists engage in all the time, I know I do
(Before I type all of this, important caveat: I am only going to be using “liberal” in the American context, meaning a milquetoast democrat. Save all of your “bUt AcTuAlLy ClAsSiCaL lIbErAlIsM” for where it’s actually fucking relevant; don’t bring that shit to me)
Yes, but you do it mostly because you’ve been taken in by these wolves. Obviously critique and push actual leftism on liberals and Democrats, but the leftism tribalism absolutely benefits the right.
Liberals aren’t leftists and we shouldn’t be complacent and settle for the liberal Democrat platform, but we also have to acknowledge that given the options the Democrats are absolutely the current harm-reductive choice. And importantly, unlike the fucking chudshits on the right, liberals are the demographic that can actually be reasoned with, educated, and brought into the light.
Anyone trying to tell you associating with or attempting to convert liberals is a waste of time is somebody who is only interested in stifling leftist growth.
You don’t have to agree with them, but conflating them with the wastes of flesh on the right is disingenuous as fuck as absolutely motivated by agenda, either intentionally or unintentionally as matter of coercion.
Exactly there’s leftists in America but no left political power, and you can’t win as a leftist because it’s like, “oh you don’t support the government that supports a fascist genocide? Well that’s how we get a fascist government!” When liberals shame leftists, who they probably agree with on every issue, for the failures of the Democrat party, I consider that more of a confession. Shaming your political allies for not being hypocritical enough rather than the party that doesn’t deliver is a pathetic position to be in.
The left isn’t stupid and understands strategic voting and the current state of US politics. Liberals are so quick to be condescending and love to liberal-splain how “if you don’t vote Democrat we get Trump” ad infinitum. As if leftists don’t understand the most basic logic. A leftist might unhappily vote Democrat out of pure strategic interest vs a liberal might take grandiose pride in their Democrat vote.
It’s hard to not make fun of liberals from the left, but I find a lot of my generation are liberals by default and friendly to more leftist viewpoints. The left has little to no representation so I don’t blame people for not being exposed to it. My parent’s generation is a lost cause because of cold war propaganda, and the most staunch liberals I know are well-to-do genx.
When I was young I thought liberal was just “not right wing” or just the morally correct political position. It took some more life experience to understand what the liberal attitude and mindset really was.
The original sin of the left is rejecting liberalism, because liberalism is the key to political agency. It’s why socialist revolutions never escape their dictatorship.
They’ll downvote because this message is a threat to campists. But at the end of the day, the way forward is liberal socialism.
That’s how I took this, yes.
You may be right, but I was giving OOP even less credit, assuming this was someone on the right making a bullshit, obvious strawman with others on the right as the intended audience, knowing that any semblance of accuracy didn’t matter in the slightest. They don’t care if it’s obvious nonsense, if it makes them feel good to repeat it, that’s all that matters.
I’m guessing they mean liberal in the classical sense and not liberal in the liberal/conservative meaning of the current US political parties.
They’re talking about the current wars and the current civil rights movements, so that wouldn’t make sense anyway.
“Whigs sure hate Instagram”.
Conservatives are liberals, too
No they aren’t
I mean conservatism directly spawned from liberalism and is correctly seen as a subgroup of classical liberalism but okay
That is shockingly ignorant or deliberately misleading.
Can you elaborate as to which one you’re going for?
You seem ignorant of what classical liberalism is.
And yet you insult those who are correct.
Haha, not even close.
Strong move, to jump on the bandwagon a day late and a dollar short, though.
I guess it’s good you’re learning
Since I can’t be bothered I had Chatgpt generate a response
Understanding conservatism as a subset of liberalism requires a nuanced view of the historical and philosophical development of these ideologies. Initially, these terms might seem contradictory, but under a broader definition of liberalism, conservatism can be considered a variant or an offshoot.
Liberalism, in its broadest historical sense, refers to a range of ideas centered around the importance of individual liberty, the rule of law, and, often, limited government. This broad category emerged during the Enlightenment and was instrumental in shaping the modern Western political and social order. Classical liberalism, in particular, emphasizes individual freedom, economic freedom, and minimal state intervention.
Conservatism, while often positioned in opposition to liberalism (especially in its progressive or social liberal forms), can be seen as a subset of liberalism in the context of this broader historical perspective. This view holds when considering that conservatism in Western political thought often shares with liberalism a commitment to certain fundamental principles such as the rule of law, individual rights (although conservatism places a stronger emphasis on communal values and traditions), and, frequently, the free market.
However, conservatism diverges from liberalism in its emphasis on tradition, authority, and often a skepticism of rapid social change. Conservative liberalism, or liberal conservatism, is a term used to describe ideologies that blend liberal values (like economic freedom) with conservative stances (such as an emphasis on traditional social structures).
In summary, while conservatism and liberalism are distinct in their traditional definitions and core philosophies, conservatism can be viewed as a subset of liberalism in the context of a broader, historical understanding of liberalism. This perspective sees both ideologies sharing some fundamental values but differing significantly in their approach to tradition, social change, and the balance between individual rights and communal responsibilities.
If you don’t even understand your own arguments, try not making them.
That AI explanation is even more narrow than the other incorrect narratives you’ve tried to put forth.
It’s basically saying that if you look at blue as a color and acknowledge that red is a color, then blue is technically a subset of red.
Which it is not
deleted by creator
“Liberal” means differently to the left (socialists and far-left to be precise). In the classical sense, a “liberal” promotes individualism, free market and private property, which many on the far-left rejects.
Which classical sense are you referring to?
From Wikipedia:
Classical liberalism is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism which advocates free market and laissez-faire economics; and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech. Classical liberalism, contrary to liberal branches like social liberalism, looks more negatively on social policies, taxation and the state involvement in the lives of individuals, and it advocates deregulation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism?wprov=sfla1
And your contention is that OP, commenting in 2023, without qualifiers, is referring to a term referring to 200-year-old conservatives?
Either way, the meme is either using an incorrect or irrelevant term.
You are giving op more than the benefit of a doubt.
You obviously did not know why “liberal” is a pejorative term used by those from the left, of all the people you would least expect to do so based from contemporary (mis)understanding.
Not even close. Like OP, your false assumptions render your point invalid.
Umm… do you realise what lemmy community you are commenting on? Probably not even close.
Of course I do. You don’t even know how to check which community you’re posting in?
No wonder you sound so confused.
If someone was opposed to a war they wouldn’t want to contribute to it. I don’t see anyone saying they want to fight or bomb Israel but lots of people do want to fight and bomb Russia.
Liberals don’t want to contribute to the wars, they’re against both the Russian invasion and the IDF atrocities, as well as the hamas atrocities.
The difference between Israel and Russia is that Israel is responding to a terrorist attack in a horrific way with 70 years of animosity and attacks behind their retaliation, while Russia is breaking treaties and trying to invade and steal a country that they have already stolen part of back in 2014.
While liberals are calling out for Israel to pull back and stop the atrocities, they’re content at watching Ukraine kick Russia’s ass for the illegal russian invasion and attempted second annexation of Ukrainian territory.
These are not the same situations at all.
That’s just the same thing in more paragraphs. Unless you want to stop the contribution of money and weapons to Ukraine you are in support of the war. Nowhere did I say that’s a bad thing by the way, I just like things to be accurate and I’ve been watching the meaning of “anti war” turn into a meaningless label that people feel like they need to put on themselves to be a good person.
If you like accuracy, you must be furious at yourself.
You’re being deliberately vague, disingenuous and narrow-minded.
You’re arguing for any country that is illegally invaded by a superior military force to just give up their country.
Placation is not the way to stop wars, promoting illegal invasion and annexation actively causes more wars. So does not doing anything.
Russia already illegally invaded and stole territory in 2014 and is now doing it again because nobody stopped them.
You’re arguing that we should just let any country invade and steal territory.
You are wrong fundamentally and on the specifics.
If you support a war then you support a war and it sounds like you do support the Ukraine war. Do you want your country to give money, weapons, and people (aka support) to Ukraine or do you not?
You appear to have a very over-simplified view here. Supporting a country that is being invaded is not the same as supporting the war itself. Supporting a war specifically implies someone supports the aggressing country and their goals. Supporting Ukraine does not mean someone also supports Russia invading Ukraine.
Acting like anyone who thinks countries should be allowed to defend themselves from invaders is pro-war is a truly terrible take.
Your flawed argument is that the soldiers fighting Nazis were pro-war. No, they were anti illegal genocide, invasion and annexation.
On the separate narrow note you’re trying to equivocate with false narratives only you are putting forth, I personally want Ukraine to receive as much support as possible, because it’s radically weakening a violent hostile country that has already proven it is hell bent on stealing territory.
Proving to the world that Russia is not a threat militarily and removing any further capacity for violent Russian hostility for decades has been a great investment.
Try again
You support genocide.
… in Ukraine. They want to fight and bomb Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
Alright Chamberlain. Brilliant logic you’ve put into this situation.
Liberals have come down hard in uncritical support of the nazi militias in Ukraine and on the Israeli side of the Palestinian struggle for freedom. Both are the pro-war stances.
Liberals have been against the Russian invasion from day one, and Russia is driving that war.
Most people have been ignorant of the Israel and Palestine conflicts until recently, and most western media glorifies the IDF because it’s a stabilizing democratic force in a notoriously anti-west region, but liberals are all upset with the current Palestinian genocide.
There are liberal pro-Palestinian anti-hamas civil rights movement right now.
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I’m against both current wars and for the current civil rights movements, so you’re 0 for 3 there.
By your logic, you’re the lib the meme is talking about.
Your Russian propaganda is b*******, russia invaded and tried to annex the rest of Ukraine the same way that they annexed Crimea because Putin is a cowardly, greedy dictator.
And you’re just agreeing with me about the IDF, so thanks, I guess.
Removed by mod
You’re close about Putin using a baseless pretense to invade and steal further territory from Ukraine, wrong about the Russian-Ukrainian peacetime relationship, and you haven’t mentioned that putin also disarmed Ukraine in a nuclear anti-arms treaty to ensure ukraine couldn’t fight back before putin broke the treaty, annexed crimea and then invaded a second time when nobody stood up to him the first time.
But hey, you got the names correct. Mostly.
Two, You’re agreeing with me about the IDF because I condemned the Palestinian genocide by the IDF. You, then, ostensibly condemned the Palestinian genocide.
This part might be difficult for you to follow, but if you condemn the same thing I already condemned, you are agreeing with me.
Man I shouldn’t make fun of you sorry. Your response is the kind of shit I would have said a couple weeks ago.
You should definitely try making fun of me, at least you’re learning something while spouting inaccuracies.
Please, flail more.
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Which ones exactly?
The ones who hold political power, mostly. If you’d like a list the just take every dem congressperson and remove Rashida Talib and there it is.
Not me.
Lol the one person that gets the post is downvoted.
Hey libs, we’re talking about you wanting to send hundreds of billions of dollars to literal Nazis that we helped move into power by overthrowing Ukraine’s government.
Whoops, looks like hexbear is leaking again
You hate that Palestine is getting food and water supplies, don’t you?
Nice projection zionist liberal