Oh, I am almost definitely buying this some time next year. The battery life is nice for occasional use, but generally I am not doing marathon sessions anymore.
But the big thing that is getting me excited is the improved thermals. When I play something that is poorly optimized or otherwise start pushing it, I very much am reminded that I am using a “gaming laptop” and all the heat rashes that entails.
Also: If the translucent black+orange were at the 512 GB range, I would probably still make a poor decision next week. More storage is always nice, but I have had zero issues with my current 512 GB drive. Spent the past year or so in that “When my sticks fail or something otherwise goes bad, I’ll crack it open. Swap out to hall effects and get the biggest nvme I can fit in there” state
I am telling myself I’ll wait for a discount. But what I totally expect to happen is I realize the cutting board I am planning to treat myself to next year comes out a lot cheaper than I am budgeting for and…
Not to help you make “bad” decisions, but this is an amazing cutting board that punches far past its cost. Its been America’s test kitchen #1 recommended for years, and I can confirm it’s excellent.
Thanks. But by “cutting board” I am more or less saying “go full sicko on my counter space to the point that this might count as a small scope remodel”.
You’re not driving the display at 90fps, so a 90 fps container for 30-45 fps content is actually not bad at all, and it should feel pretty smooth even with minor fps drops.
People think VRR is magic sometimes, but it doesn’t work well with all types of content. For handheld you’re often going to be driving at low fps a high refresh rate can be more relevant sometimes. VRR on top of everything else would be nice, but it’s definitely not a must.
Oh. I don’t want to really go down that rabbit hole, but I think the 90 hz refresh rate is completely unnecessary considering the use case of the steam deck. Likely just a function of the oled.
And I do think setting a target refresh rate is probably better in the long run. It encourages people to optimize their performance settings and provides a target.
But also? Fluctuations and “running at the limits of your system” are where VRR IS magic. You never have to worry about artifacts that occur from being on the wrong multiple (especially with the math for why 40 Hz is better than 30 AND 45 for a 60 Hz display…). And that is largely where the Deck lives.
I don’t think VRR is essential for the Steam Deck. But I do think it is a “no brainer” that I assume is only not there because of how the (kind of ridiculously) low resolution OLEDs were sourced.
And tinfoil hat mode: It also isn’t something that really benefits from reviews. DF might touch on it, but the vast majority of outlets will intentionally set up benchmarks for a stable frame rate and… the Steam Deck is going to continue to be the baseline for all those comparisons. So showing off how good it looks when it is bouncing between 20 and 50 FPS just isn’t going to be something that shows up in a GN video.
I don’t know what VRR windows you get on handheld displays these days, but at 30fps it shouldn’t be super useful compared to vsynced 90Hz. 90 is 11ms intervals for your next frame, and if you’re pushing the hardware at ~30fps you may have bigger swings between frames in VRR (e.g. you could have 8ms between two frames and 28ms between the next two), which still reads as stutter, with or without VRR.
So it’s not as much of a no-brainer as you may think. That’s basically the same reason Lenovo insiders gave for why the 1600p 144Hz panel in the Lenovo Legion GO is also not VRR. In that case it makes a bit more sense because that’s just 7ms between refreshes, so you may genuinely struggle telling the difference between that and VRR if you’re rendering less than 60fps.
I think Digital Foundry does a lot of good advocacy and educational content, but sometimes they get hung up on pet peeves and give people the wrong impression about which buzzwords are important on which contexts.
Of course Lenovo are going to have marketing for why them saving money is actually better for the consumer. That is just how marketing works. If Valve were at all competent at it, they would be doing the same.
VRR doesn’t stop stutter. But it helps a lot when you have those gradual fluctuations. Think “If I look up, my FPS drops by 20%”. At which point you no loner have to worry at all about multiples to avoid screen tearing or all of that annoying stuff. All of which is REALLY nice when you are at the limits of your system. Whether that is pushing 100-144 FPS or 20-40 FPS. It won’t make it look like it is running perfectly, but it very much helps a lot and there is a reason that VRR is one of those “most noticeable hardware improvements” you can get.
And can we please skip out on the “Oh, people just don’t notice improved graphics and refresh rates anyway” nonsense? I realize the Steam Deck is a handheld, but this isn’t a Nintendo Switch thread.
FWIW, LTT seems to have asked about VRR and they hypothesize, based on the answer, that they’re sourcing from the same place as Nintendo and that is limiting the VRR option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVXqoVi6RE
But my point stands in that you’re thinking about the target spec of the display, not the games. There IS a difference between 20-40 and 100-144 fps. First, because it’s a lot harder to keep a steady rate at 7ms frame budgets and second because the sense of stability doesn’t have the same demands.
And yes, it’s a perceptual thing. Some people will be more sensitive than others, but I would feel comfortable showing a 28-30 fps clip to people on a 144Hz vsync and a VRR display and asking them to spot which is which. Simply put the gaps in miliseconds between those two things are going to be too similar to tell apart. I know because I’ve tried. I have 100, 120, 144 and 165 fps displays, both VRR and vsynced. I’ve messed around with this for a long time for fun and profit.
I have no question that VRR would be a slight improvement, but I’m also not surprised that at these levels of speed and size both Lenovo and Valve decided that it wasn’t worth to chase VRR compared to the high refresh alternative. That gels with my own experience.
If you don’t own a PC handheld and want one this is not a bad time to jump in at all, especially if you’re on a budget.
I don’t expect you’ll see a refresh on this thing again for a couple of years at least. Given how accessible the prices for the Deck are I don’t know if waiting that long makes sense. I mean, there will likely be a Switch 2 at some point in that interval, so if you only want the one handheld that may be something to wait-and-see for, but handheld PCs are PCs, there’s always gonna be a big new thing to look forward to.
You are “missing out” on nothing and technology gets better every couple months at this rate. I don’t want to put myself at the mercy of ASUS for support, but their handheld is REALLY nice. Similarly, Aya and GPD have been doing this for the better part of a decade and are largely what the Steam Deck was based on. And GPD in particular have some very interesting form factors
Most of the devices out there are geared toward Windows (which plays with Gamepass). In large part because MS have put a lot of effort into touchpad/touchscreen support whereas Linux is… gonna Linux. But there are increasing third party efforts to make linux distros and Valve seem to want to push for SteamOS as a distro (and I think Aya have said they want to use it?).
At the end of the day: if the price is right and you think you’ll use it, get it. If not? Fuck it. Buy something else.
The benefit of the 90hz is that it raises the bar for refresh rate/2 gameplay for latency/performamce requirement.
40hz alone is half of the input latency difference between 30 and 60 fps, and is much more realistic to hit performance numbers for. Some people run it at 40hz for optimized battery/performamce/latency ratio. Setting it to 45 now makes it every frame is evenly doubled. That along with the die shrink/10W/Hr/chemistry changes will allow the battery to last a lot longer on the go, at least on paper
That would make more sense if you couldn’t set the old LCD panel to 45 already. There’s still an advantage to doubling each frame, especially in reducing latency on frame drops, but I don’t think there are any refresh targets under 60 the old panel couldn’t match after they introduced the manual refresh control feature.
The battery life seems much, much better, though. There are already some preview benchmarks that say at minimum TDP you can get to double digit hours on this thing. That’s nuts for a x64 handheld device.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfoLRmKwnSI
The 90 Hz display is apparently still not VRR
So went from “I NEED THIS” to “I really shouldn’t buy it but probably will upgrade during the first sale”
Better battery life, faster wifi and brighter display is definitely enough for me! Though I will have to be able to sell my original one first
Oh, I am almost definitely buying this some time next year. The battery life is nice for occasional use, but generally I am not doing marathon sessions anymore.
But the big thing that is getting me excited is the improved thermals. When I play something that is poorly optimized or otherwise start pushing it, I very much am reminded that I am using a “gaming laptop” and all the heat rashes that entails.
Also: If the translucent black+orange were at the 512 GB range, I would probably still make a poor decision next week. More storage is always nice, but I have had zero issues with my current 512 GB drive. Spent the past year or so in that “When my sticks fail or something otherwise goes bad, I’ll crack it open. Swap out to hall effects and get the biggest nvme I can fit in there” state
I am telling myself I’ll wait for a discount. But what I totally expect to happen is I realize the cutting board I am planning to treat myself to next year comes out a lot cheaper than I am budgeting for and…
Not to help you make “bad” decisions, but this is an amazing cutting board that punches far past its cost. Its been America’s test kitchen #1 recommended for years, and I can confirm it’s excellent.
Thanks. But by “cutting board” I am more or less saying “go full sicko on my counter space to the point that this might count as a small scope remodel”.
Ahh, that will be doom to your pocketbook, but enjoy.
You’re not driving the display at 90fps, so a 90 fps container for 30-45 fps content is actually not bad at all, and it should feel pretty smooth even with minor fps drops.
People think VRR is magic sometimes, but it doesn’t work well with all types of content. For handheld you’re often going to be driving at low fps a high refresh rate can be more relevant sometimes. VRR on top of everything else would be nice, but it’s definitely not a must.
Oh. I don’t want to really go down that rabbit hole, but I think the 90 hz refresh rate is completely unnecessary considering the use case of the steam deck. Likely just a function of the oled.
And I do think setting a target refresh rate is probably better in the long run. It encourages people to optimize their performance settings and provides a target.
But also? Fluctuations and “running at the limits of your system” are where VRR IS magic. You never have to worry about artifacts that occur from being on the wrong multiple (especially with the math for why 40 Hz is better than 30 AND 45 for a 60 Hz display…). And that is largely where the Deck lives.
I don’t think VRR is essential for the Steam Deck. But I do think it is a “no brainer” that I assume is only not there because of how the (kind of ridiculously) low resolution OLEDs were sourced.
And tinfoil hat mode: It also isn’t something that really benefits from reviews. DF might touch on it, but the vast majority of outlets will intentionally set up benchmarks for a stable frame rate and… the Steam Deck is going to continue to be the baseline for all those comparisons. So showing off how good it looks when it is bouncing between 20 and 50 FPS just isn’t going to be something that shows up in a GN video.
I don’t know what VRR windows you get on handheld displays these days, but at 30fps it shouldn’t be super useful compared to vsynced 90Hz. 90 is 11ms intervals for your next frame, and if you’re pushing the hardware at ~30fps you may have bigger swings between frames in VRR (e.g. you could have 8ms between two frames and 28ms between the next two), which still reads as stutter, with or without VRR.
So it’s not as much of a no-brainer as you may think. That’s basically the same reason Lenovo insiders gave for why the 1600p 144Hz panel in the Lenovo Legion GO is also not VRR. In that case it makes a bit more sense because that’s just 7ms between refreshes, so you may genuinely struggle telling the difference between that and VRR if you’re rendering less than 60fps.
I think Digital Foundry does a lot of good advocacy and educational content, but sometimes they get hung up on pet peeves and give people the wrong impression about which buzzwords are important on which contexts.
Of course Lenovo are going to have marketing for why them saving money is actually better for the consumer. That is just how marketing works. If Valve were at all competent at it, they would be doing the same.
VRR doesn’t stop stutter. But it helps a lot when you have those gradual fluctuations. Think “If I look up, my FPS drops by 20%”. At which point you no loner have to worry at all about multiples to avoid screen tearing or all of that annoying stuff. All of which is REALLY nice when you are at the limits of your system. Whether that is pushing 100-144 FPS or 20-40 FPS. It won’t make it look like it is running perfectly, but it very much helps a lot and there is a reason that VRR is one of those “most noticeable hardware improvements” you can get.
And can we please skip out on the “Oh, people just don’t notice improved graphics and refresh rates anyway” nonsense? I realize the Steam Deck is a handheld, but this isn’t a Nintendo Switch thread.
FWIW, LTT seems to have asked about VRR and they hypothesize, based on the answer, that they’re sourcing from the same place as Nintendo and that is limiting the VRR option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVXqoVi6RE
But my point stands in that you’re thinking about the target spec of the display, not the games. There IS a difference between 20-40 and 100-144 fps. First, because it’s a lot harder to keep a steady rate at 7ms frame budgets and second because the sense of stability doesn’t have the same demands.
And yes, it’s a perceptual thing. Some people will be more sensitive than others, but I would feel comfortable showing a 28-30 fps clip to people on a 144Hz vsync and a VRR display and asking them to spot which is which. Simply put the gaps in miliseconds between those two things are going to be too similar to tell apart. I know because I’ve tried. I have 100, 120, 144 and 165 fps displays, both VRR and vsynced. I’ve messed around with this for a long time for fun and profit.
I have no question that VRR would be a slight improvement, but I’m also not surprised that at these levels of speed and size both Lenovo and Valve decided that it wasn’t worth to chase VRR compared to the high refresh alternative. That gels with my own experience.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=uCVXqoVi6RE
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
deleted by creator
If you don’t own a PC handheld and want one this is not a bad time to jump in at all, especially if you’re on a budget.
I don’t expect you’ll see a refresh on this thing again for a couple of years at least. Given how accessible the prices for the Deck are I don’t know if waiting that long makes sense. I mean, there will likely be a Switch 2 at some point in that interval, so if you only want the one handheld that may be something to wait-and-see for, but handheld PCs are PCs, there’s always gonna be a big new thing to look forward to.
deleted by creator
That is literally FOMO.
You are “missing out” on nothing and technology gets better every couple months at this rate. I don’t want to put myself at the mercy of ASUS for support, but their handheld is REALLY nice. Similarly, Aya and GPD have been doing this for the better part of a decade and are largely what the Steam Deck was based on. And GPD in particular have some very interesting form factors
Most of the devices out there are geared toward Windows (which plays with Gamepass). In large part because MS have put a lot of effort into touchpad/touchscreen support whereas Linux is… gonna Linux. But there are increasing third party efforts to make linux distros and Valve seem to want to push for SteamOS as a distro (and I think Aya have said they want to use it?).
At the end of the day: if the price is right and you think you’ll use it, get it. If not? Fuck it. Buy something else.
deleted by creator
The benefit of the 90hz is that it raises the bar for refresh rate/2 gameplay for latency/performamce requirement.
40hz alone is half of the input latency difference between 30 and 60 fps, and is much more realistic to hit performance numbers for. Some people run it at 40hz for optimized battery/performamce/latency ratio. Setting it to 45 now makes it every frame is evenly doubled. That along with the die shrink/10W/Hr/chemistry changes will allow the battery to last a lot longer on the go, at least on paper
That would make more sense if you couldn’t set the old LCD panel to 45 already. There’s still an advantage to doubling each frame, especially in reducing latency on frame drops, but I don’t think there are any refresh targets under 60 the old panel couldn’t match after they introduced the manual refresh control feature.
The battery life seems much, much better, though. There are already some preview benchmarks that say at minimum TDP you can get to double digit hours on this thing. That’s nuts for a x64 handheld device.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=WfoLRmKwnSI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.