Israeli airstrikes destroyed a tower block in Gaza City after Hamas militants launched a rocket and air attack on Israel in the early hours of Saturday morning.

The Israeli army launched Operation Iron Swords against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, with Israel’s president, Benjamin Netanyahu, saying the country, is ‘at war’.

Al Jazeera journalist Youmna El Sayed was reporting live from Gaza the moment the missile struck Palestine Tower behind her.

Sources in Gaza said at least 198 Palestinians were killed in the strikes

  • fishos@lemmy.worldEnglish
    7717·
    1 year ago

    This is the same Israel with their elite mossad forces, yes? “Meat shields” are a poor excuse for indiscriminately bombing a city block when you have elite spec ops units. They don’t do it because they have no other choice, they do it as a threatening show of force. “Fuck with us and we’ll kill anyone even near you”.

    There’s a middle ground that doesn’t involve slaughtering innocents.

    • Huntersli@lemmy.worldEnglish
      242·
      1 year ago

      Any chance you can school me in the rights and wrongs of this situation, I have tried to read up on the situation between Israel and Palestine and I just can’t work out who, if anyone is at fault. It just seems like a crazy unresolvable mess.

      On the face of it I would just think the solution is to let the Palestinians have their bit of land and be done with it, why is it not that simple?

      Also it’s really hard to understand who is justified in their actions. I often find myself feeling sorry for the Palestinians but then I see them riding through London celebration the murder of innocent people and it makes it really hard for me to feel sorry for them. Similarly with Israelis, it’s horrible that they have innocent civilians murdered but killing 250 in response is just crazy…

      I’m not trolling or shit posting I honestly can’t work it out.

      • threeduck@aussie.zoneEnglish
        211·
        1 year ago

        There’s a good Louis Theroux documentary that might give some context.

        Tldw, Israelites aren’t really respecting the borders - in this doco they send over zealous Jewish people from various countries to buy up and live in properties in these disputed areas to slowly take it over. Palestinians retaliate aggressively, typically violently.

        • Huntersli@lemmy.worldEnglish
          3·
          1 year ago

          Thanks all for teaching me a little about this situation, it is kind of how I had imagined it and there is no real immediate solution. I guess like any long standing conflict there are failings on both sides and neither willing to capitulate. As has been alluded to, it just does not seem to warrant the loss of life on both sides. I might do a little bit of reading on the local politics to see how this is played out to their respective populations.

          Louis Theroux is always a good call!

          • barsoap@lemm.eeEnglish
            4·
            1 year ago

            No, Jewish people from various countries. Radical fucks reach out to Jewish communities abroad, the less educated and poorer the better, radicalise people into militant Zionism, the type that’s completely at odds with past or present facts and only knows erm manifest destiny (to draw a parallel), then brings them into Israel which is easy because Israel hands out free passports to all Jews.

            • danhakimi@kbin.social
              12·
              1 year ago

              I mean, it’s usually more like… Jews the world over are sick of their home countries and want to live in Israel, don’t realize how expensive it is, go there, can’t afford housing in Israel proper, and are told they can go live in the settlements. Or, demand causes Jews in Israel to seek cheaper housing.

              Which is still an issue, but your conception is really not the norm.

              • barsoap@lemm.eeEnglish
                2·
                1 year ago

                It really doesn’t make a difference in the end though, does it, whether people first arrive and then are radicalised (you can’t set foot into a settlement without meeting awful but well-organised people, we’re not talking about Hippie Kibbutzim), or whether you’re radicalised before arriving, or whether the outreach programmes directly indoctrinate abroad or wait until the inevitable happens.

                …I’ll freely admit that I’m not deep into the details. I’m simply going off my Aunt’s rants who actually lives in the country.

                • danhakimi@kbin.social
                  11·
                  1 year ago

                  I mean, what she’s describing has kind of happened. But it’s not like Americans are coming over and building their own homes at the behest of Israeli chasids. The settlements are being built by greedy land developers, and Netanyahu is turning a blind eye for… well, complex reasons, but ultimately mostly because he’s a corrupt dirtbag.

                  Some people do go to live on hippie kibbutzim.

      • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
        245·
        1 year ago

        So, depends on the incident in question who’s at fault changes, but the ones with the power to change the situation are Israel and they’re not doing that. Indiscriminately killing civilians is never justified, but with how Israel has been treating Palestinians you can understand where the attitude came from. People tend to hate the shit out of their oppressors, especially when those oppressors put them in open air concentration camps.

        That aside there’s Israeli settlement in the West bank and East Jerusalem, the whole Apartheid thing, y’know it’s a long list. Basically Israel created a situation where terrorism and other armed action is the only way to fight back, which predictably caused terrorism.

      • fishos@lemmy.worldEnglish
        82·
        1 year ago

        I appreciate your thoughtful response. Unfortunately it is an incredibly murky mess at this point. Say you side with Palestine and say it’s their land. Do you then kick out the people who were born on the land after the conflict started? Innocent people who’s only crime is the location of their birth? Or do you side with Israel and claim it’s their land now and do the same to Palestinians? Where do you put the people you relocate?

        I won’t pretend to have an answer to that. Just pointing out that either answer has numerous problems which is part of why no solution has been reached yet. Few, if any, solution will be a “win-win”. Someone will have to concede, and neither side seems willing to right now.

        That said, indiscriminate violence from either side is abhorible. I detest the death of any innocent civilian in all of this. “Two wrongs don’t make a right” and all that. Both sides have committed crimes and those responsible should all be held accountable for turning the area into a warzone.

        • Spzi@lemm.eeEnglish
          2·
          1 year ago

          We can also spice it up with a bit of game theory. Assumption: Most people on both sides genuinely want peace.

          Addition: On both sides, fractions exist which benefit from the conflict. They gain from stirring up hate, provoking fights, portraying threats. They lose power and influence when peace talks succeed. They gain power and influence when their “partners” from the other side attack.

          So yes, this is a wicked problem to solve, for many reasons.

      • ???@lemmy.worldEnglish
        53·
        1 year ago

        to let the Palestinians have their bit of land and be done with it

        That is such a weird way to phrase it. A “bit of land” like Palestinians were some kind of barbarian spawn that just showed up there.

        It makes it really hard for me to feel sorry for them.

        As a Palestinian I want to personally say to you that no one needs you to be sorry for us so you can stop worrying.

      • danhakimi@kbin.social
        717·
        1 year ago

        It’s an incredibly complex situation, but as a baseline:

        Intentionally targeting civilians is unacceptable.

        Hamas does this with great pride. It celebrates the slaughter and kidnapping of civilians. It pays the families of terrorists in celebration of their terrorism.

        In my opinion, the IDF is remarkably careful not to kill civilians. There have been incidental killings, largely, from my knowledge, when Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas such as homes, mosques, hospitals, and schools. There have been rogue Israeli actors who killed civilians intentionally, and they have mostly been tried and convicted for their crimes. There have been moral failures on behalf of the IDF, but it does generally investigate those failures seriously, rather than celebrating them.

        I do sympathize for innocent Palestinians who are doubly oppressed by Hamas and the Israeli occupation, but feel that the occupation is necessary to prevent greater violence against Israeli civilians.

        That’s about all I can give you without digging into the history.

    • danhakimi@kbin.social
      718·
      1 year ago

      Israel does nothing “indiscriminately.” Israel uses lots of advanced technology to try to make sure the buildings it attacks are clear of civilians: both to check the buildings and to warn any potential civilians they might have missed to evacuate. The “middle ground” approach is exactly what the IDF is doing.

      • filister@lemmy.worldEnglish
        125·
        1 year ago

        Ah yes, perhaps you can check Wikipedia and compare the numbers of civilian casualties and tell us again, how Israel is doing everything to protect the civilians.

        The truth is that after each Palestinian attack when you compare the numbers of civilian casualties you can see that they are a couple of times higher on the Palestinian side.

        This tactic isn’t exactly the one screaming I want to find a long term peace solution. And mind you, I am not defending Hamas here, what they did is horrible, the problem is that neither of the sides is looking for reconciliation, which is sad, and that the innocents are the ones who suffer the most.

        • danhakimi@kbin.social
          68·
          1 year ago

          Israeli civilian deaths from this attack—which again, was actively, intentionally targeted at civillians—were 250. IIRC, the latest number of Palestinian deaths, including combatants, in 2023, is “over 200.”

          But I wasn’t talking about numbers. I was talking about intent, effort, strategy. Yes, some Palestinian civilians do die as a result of attacks by Israel. Israel tends to be better at protecting its civilians, Hamas intentionally puts its civilians in harm’s way. Yes, to some extent, the numbers reflect that.

          And by the way, there are also Palestinians dying to friendly fire caused by haphazard rocket fire.

          • filister@lemmy.worldEnglish
            62·
            1 year ago

            And I said by the time this recent escalation ends. Meaning that this end won’t be today as the retaliation of Israel is currently ongoing and surprise surprise civilian casualties numbers are not going to be updated immediately.

            Do you really believe that there won’t be any retaliation strikes from Israel that won’t involve civilian deaths on the Palestinian side? Because if you do you are a fool!

            Again not defending Hamas, just saying that seeing only one side of the conflict and what their wrongdoings are isn’t the best approach in this case.

            • danhakimi@kbin.social
              23·
              1 year ago

              Do you really believe that there won’t be any retaliation strikes from Israel that won’t involve civilian deaths on the Palestinian side? Because if you do you are a fool!

              I didn’t say that.

              I really don’t think Israel will target any civilians. Some rogue IDF soldiers have done so in the past, but it’s rare and generally punished quite quickly.

              I can’t say which side will suffer more civilian casualties, but I know that Hamas’s goal is to cause as many as possible, and Israel is making very active efforts to cause as few as possible. The fact that Israel is well-equipped to defend itself and Hamas doesn’t feel like it will, inevitably, skew the statistics.

              • filister@lemmy.worldEnglish
                41·
                1 year ago

                Oh so your point is that Israeli civilian casualties matter more, right? Plus provide me with any proof that IDF soldiers are really trialed and effectively put into prison with effective sentences.

                Plus the whole fact that Israel is not a member of the ICC speaks volumes about their human rights track record https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arabs-israel-stay-sidelines-raging-democracy-battle-2023-07-26/#:~:text=While Israel says it grants,more than three times higher.

                Plus it is not like Israeli politicians are not complicit by inciting racial hatred by stating that certain Palestinian villages must be erased or by continually expanding the Israeli settlements in disputed territories. So I don’t know for you but in my books that’s not exactly screaming actively looking for a peaceful solution to the problem. You should also check what pretty much every independent human rights watch group has to say about the issue.

                Again not defending any civilian casualties and I wish both parties were actually looking to resolve this problem in a peaceful manner through diplomatic channels. Unfortunately that boat departed, after the Oslo accord, there are no real attempts to reconcile instead things seem to be getting worse every year with no hope in sight.