That’s all fine and dandy until people change the definition of those words to suit their needs. Then all speech they disagree with is hate speech. Which has already happened
Let’s get some examples there chief.
Link what you think is “fine” and has been labeled hate speech
There have been some laws passed by several states to label criticisms of Israel’s apartheid state as hate speech and outlaw BDS boycotts based on that.
Do not assume the right wing won’t try to turn whatever tactic you find effective against them back at you. That doesn’t mean you should stop using it though; they certainly aren’t going to drop it now that they’ve found a way to wield it.
I specifically said to continue using it. Right wingers using it for right wing goals doesn’t mean that it’s inherently bad or something. Labeling things hate speech is a useful tool, but don’t trick yourself into thinking your opponent can’t use it.
Link what you think is “fine” and has been labeled hate speech
Sure, lets start with having a penis making you a man, and a vagina making you a woman. Referencing indisputable biology has been called both hate and a phobia more times than I can count.
Ah, there it is. At least you’re willing to say it and not tiptoe around it like a coward.
The reason the scientific community does not endorse the conservative gender ideology, is because it causes much more direct harm than good to human happiness. If we don’t let trans people transition, their lives are so much worse that they are seriously likely to kill themselves. Most of the negative consequences of transition come from bigotry, something that is unequivocally on the bigot, not the trans person. Most people who “detransition” after taking hormones do so because of hate rather than because they realize it wasn’t for them.
There is no direct harm caused to people who aren’t trans so long as they treat other adults as equals, and let children access the help they need.
Trans people are not more likely to be the perpetrators of violence, they’re more likely to be the victims of it. Male predators don’t need to pretend to be a woman to get into women’s bathrooms or intrude on their spaces. The anti trans rhetoric is based on lies.
The biggest thing you need to recognize about your position is that it helps the insanely corrupt and selfish far right political groups like the American GOP. It is a wedge issue used to promote incompetent rulers who hate anyone that isn’t a rich male member of the largest cultural group. Even if you don’t believe you hate trans people, your support allows trans people to be legally persecuted for trying to live. I am not exaggerating, trans people are losing lifesaving treatment and being forced from public life, thanks to the refusal of people like you to stand up against the bigots.
You did prove them right, though. It was fine to say a woman is someone with a vagina and a man is someone with a penis in the past and now you consider this hate speech.
So, their point is correct. People change the definition of words and if you still use that words you are treated as a bigot and worse.
Are you all misunderstanding this discussion on puporse? Or do people struggle to understand how replying on Lemmy works? You all are now arguing against me how it’s bigoted to misgender someone.
I will put the discussion into this comment again, just because I hope you seriously just lost track of what was said.
Person says:
That’s all fine and dandy until people change the definition of those words to suit their needs. Then all speech they disagree with is hate speech. Which has already happened.
This gets 10 upvotes, 120 downvotes.
Another person answers:
Let’s get some examples there chief. Link what you think is “fine” and has been labeled hate speech
This gets 72 upvotes, 2 downvotes.
The person replies with:
Sure, lets start with having a penis making you a man, and a vagina making you a woman. Referencing indisputable biology has been called both hate and a phobia more times than I can count.
5 upvotes, 42 downvotes.
And now people go on a tangent how it’s bigoted, dangerous and wrong to misgender people. How the defintion of words change etc.
Are you all dense or something? That’s literally what the person was saying! But by pointing that out you all somehow try to paint the person as bigoted. That’s completely besides the point?
Is someone else seeing what’s going on here?!
And other words change if they are acceptable or not. In our grandparent’s childhoods, it was usual to call a black person a n*****. Now it isn’t, and that’s a good thing, isn’t it?
But that’s not the point of the discussion? The person said that things that used to be fine can suddenly be not tolerated. People downvoted the person and claimed that’s not true.
It was fine to say a woman is someone with a vagina and a man is someone with a penis in the past and now you consider this hate speech.
Still is fine, you wont go to jail for accidently misgendering someone. At worst you may illicit an awkward cough in the room and maybe someone will take you aside later and be like “bruh they are (other gender) haha” and you would be like “Oh shit! My bad!” and that should typically be the end of it.
I’m a dude with just very long hair, cuz I like its style. I get misgendered all the time from the back, people call me a lady or ma’am all the time.
When they see me up close they often go “Oh geez Im sorry!” and I just laugh and tell them not to worry about it, it happens all the time. Thats about it. Thats the whole interaction.
Thats right, misgendering happens to cis people all the time too, and this type of social interaction is an ancient one that has been around for a millenia.
No one actually gives a shit.
Now if you PURPOSEFULLY misgender someone to try and hurt them…
That is actually a fucking problem and now you are being an asshole. But thats not just for trans folks! That applies to cis people just as much.
Let me ask you this: You walk into a bar with a biker gang, and a big burly dude is in there and you call him a woman, and he informs you sternly (cough) that he is a man, and you keep calling him a lady and are clearly trying to piss him off, you tell me how well that will probably turn out for you.
In no way or form did I say it is okay to misgender someone.
Please try to understand what this discussion was about. It was about the very fact that words and things that were okay to say in the past, are sometimes not okay to say anymore today.
N***** used to just be the word for black people, coming from the word Latin “niger”([ˈnɪɡɛr]) and meaning the color black, almost every Romance language still uses it, but I would strongly suggest not using it in the USA.
yes, I agree that we should all be allowed to say N***** because the only reason we can’t is because of Woke speech police! and while we are at it, why should anyone be upset with me that I point out the fact that the Holocaust never happened, and it was all orchestrated by (((them))) and how we should find a solution to (((them))), perhaps a rather final one.
Except the person argued about what IS fine, not what WAS considered fine in the past. The person is literally arguing that we ought to be able to misgender people. They claim it is morally righteous to misgender trans people. Their reasoning is that people are only labeling misgendering as hate speech because they disagree with it, not because it is actually hate speech.
I provided good reasons as to why misgendering and promoting the conservative gender ideology that causes it is harmful, debunking their argument that the perspective is being labeled only due to disagreement. Let’s look back at their original argument.
That’s all fine and dandy until people change the definition of those words to suit their needs. Then all speech they disagree with is hate speech. Which has already happened.
The argument that hate speech laws could be used frivolously to silence those who disagree is a valid hypothetical concern. Where this person fucks up is by claiming things are already being labeled as hate speech even when they aren’t. This is suspect because there aren’t many places that seriously outlaw hate speech, and most of those places have yet to overstep the law in any real way.
In places like the US where people are at best, socially shunned for hate speech, it’s uncommon for people to falsely claim bigotry on a large scale. Usually when a false claim is made, the falsehood is in the description of events, not the moral principle being applied to.
When another poster pushes back, the person claims the conservative gender ideology isn’t hateful and is deemed as such because people disagree with it, and argument I showed to be lacking. It is hateful because it inherently promotes hate and discrimination. You’re trying to run interference for the poster by misunderstanding the moral principle that they appealed to.
They did not appeal to the idea that words get changed to make you look wrong for using the old definition. This would be like if “to flame” was understood to mean criticize, but everyone forgot that usage and then you said “we should flame that guy.” You meant something reasonable but people didn’t understand you. That’s what you claim is the problem when you say:
People change the definition of words and if you still use that words you are treated as a bigot and worse.
The poster claimed that the old definition is actually good and should still be used. I pointed out how that the old definition is problematic, even by the logic of the past. It excludes and includes people it shouldn’t which results in real harm. I laid out the real harm done by those definitions, allowing the poster to make an informed decision on whether to still hold that definition. If they still choose to insist on that old definition that harms a group of people for characteristics they didn’t choose, then they are a bigot. Harming a group for innate characteristics is bigotry.
TLDR: You ironically moved the goalposts and misunderstood what the poster was arguing. I did not prove them right in any way.
This is ridiculous, really. It does feel as if you were bots going aggressively off on a tangent with no connection to the content or context.
Or you are simply unwilling/unable to make a distinction between different levels of communication.
Do you agree that sometimes things were fine to say in the past and now they are considered hate speech?
That was the topic of the discussion.
To prevent you and others from getting caught up in and endless loop of being triggered, I will provide another example instead:
In the past it was okay to address a woman as “Fräulein X” when she was unmarried. And as “Frau X” when she was married (in German). No one cared about that, now, many people will considered it rude an bigoted and call you a sexist when doing it anyway.
Now that I think about it I feel it’s actually quite easy to find a few examples, and the question to the original poster to provide an example was seemingly just bait so you all can get enraged for a bit. And everyone who didn’t participate in the overall outrage, you generously consider and treat as a bigot you have to correct as well.
You need to learn that such things are a part of life and you have to deal with it in order to be a member of society. The existence of progress doesn’t negate the need for hate speech protection. All societies have to change with time and that’s okay.
I think you all forgot the purpose behind policies like freedom of speech and natural rights and that’s why you’re getting all mixed up.
In no way or form did I say it is okay to misgender someone.
Please try to understand what this discussion was about. It was about the very fact that words and things that were okay to say in the past, are sometimes not okay to say anymore today.
Language will always be a moving target. If you said “woman used to mean x and now it means y” you’d be fine. The problem isn’t that language changes with us, it’s equivocation. Using women two different ways in a conversation is a dick move.
I mean people are ‘triggered’ mostly by intentional asshattery. A 60yo coworker was talking to me about his trans (mtf) daughter yesterday and had the pronouns all fucked up, but it was obvious he loves his kid and wants what’s best for her. I think most people would give him some leeway. Going to a place very obviously over-represented by trans people and doing it makes it seem sort of intentional.
It’s a situation where people won’t be triggered by language vs the people here trying to bait people. If you can’t see the relevance I don’t think I can lead you there.
Its doesnt “make” them a man, they ARE a man. I could care less if people want to switch sides, but pretending you’re no longer what your biology dictates is stupid.
If theyre a women, go get pregnant and carry a child to term, when I see that, theyre a woman.
Its not about politics, its not about religion, its about biological fact and commom sense.
Being “progressive” doesnt include ignorance of reality.
Well… Guess a lot women turn out to be men. We didn’t see them carry a child. Perhaps they will carry a child at some point, perhaps they won’t. But until then you can’t trust a single woman to be a woman until they have born a child in front of you.
You may want to get used to the idea that you’ve been attracted to men all along. I can help you with your coming out.
Today I learned infertile women are men. Women without children are men. Women who adopted but didn’t get pregnant and carry their children are men. Got it.
There is a difference between biological sex (male/female) and social gender (man/woman). Feel free to make this the hill you die on, if you’d like. My hill is the left fawning over tolerance for Islam without understanding that it’s an exclusivist fundamentalist proselytizing religion that has no sizeable liberal movements. There is no version of Islam that is like the Unitarians, UCC, etc where the holy book is understood to be a product of its times. Sufism is close insofar as their mysticism makes them chill, but they’re not universalists. I have no desire to import proselytizing religionists of any culture or creed, and certainly no tolerance for the same.
what are you talking about, he is platforming and agreeing with everyone from the arch-conservatives all the way to the alt-right retards in the last few months.
He also agrees with a ton on the left, which is why I said Libertarian. If you actually listen to him it’s pretty impossible to miss he’s fiscally and constitutionally conservative and pretty damn liberal socially.
This is a definition dispute, not biological. Mostly anyway. I could have this conversation with a lot of people and it wouldn’t be any sort of hate speech, but it’s pretty obvious what you’re about here.
Let’s get some examples there chief.
Link what you think is “fine” and has been labeled hate speech
There have been some laws passed by several states to label criticisms of Israel’s apartheid state as hate speech and outlaw BDS boycotts based on that.
Do not assume the right wing won’t try to turn whatever tactic you find effective against them back at you. That doesn’t mean you should stop using it though; they certainly aren’t going to drop it now that they’ve found a way to wield it.
That’s the same as the other example someone gave…
Fascists calling something hate speech so we stop talking about their fascism.
Why does this work on so many people?
What logic are you using that this means we can’t use the term “hate speech” anymore?
I specifically said to continue using it. Right wingers using it for right wing goals doesn’t mean that it’s inherently bad or something. Labeling things hate speech is a useful tool, but don’t trick yourself into thinking your opponent can’t use it.
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Sure, lets start with having a penis making you a man, and a vagina making you a woman. Referencing indisputable biology has been called both hate and a phobia more times than I can count.
Ah, there it is. At least you’re willing to say it and not tiptoe around it like a coward.
The reason the scientific community does not endorse the conservative gender ideology, is because it causes much more direct harm than good to human happiness. If we don’t let trans people transition, their lives are so much worse that they are seriously likely to kill themselves. Most of the negative consequences of transition come from bigotry, something that is unequivocally on the bigot, not the trans person. Most people who “detransition” after taking hormones do so because of hate rather than because they realize it wasn’t for them.
There is no direct harm caused to people who aren’t trans so long as they treat other adults as equals, and let children access the help they need. Trans people are not more likely to be the perpetrators of violence, they’re more likely to be the victims of it. Male predators don’t need to pretend to be a woman to get into women’s bathrooms or intrude on their spaces. The anti trans rhetoric is based on lies.
The biggest thing you need to recognize about your position is that it helps the insanely corrupt and selfish far right political groups like the American GOP. It is a wedge issue used to promote incompetent rulers who hate anyone that isn’t a rich male member of the largest cultural group. Even if you don’t believe you hate trans people, your support allows trans people to be legally persecuted for trying to live. I am not exaggerating, trans people are losing lifesaving treatment and being forced from public life, thanks to the refusal of people like you to stand up against the bigots.
Has anyone ever told you how unfathomably based you are?
You did prove them right, though. It was fine to say a woman is someone with a vagina and a man is someone with a penis in the past and now you consider this hate speech.
So, their point is correct. People change the definition of words and if you still use that words you are treated as a bigot and worse.
Are you all misunderstanding this discussion on puporse? Or do people struggle to understand how replying on Lemmy works? You all are now arguing against me how it’s bigoted to misgender someone.
I will put the discussion into this comment again, just because I hope you seriously just lost track of what was said.
Person says:
This gets 10 upvotes, 120 downvotes.
Another person answers:
This gets 72 upvotes, 2 downvotes.
The person replies with:
5 upvotes, 42 downvotes.
And now people go on a tangent how it’s bigoted, dangerous and wrong to misgender people. How the defintion of words change etc.
Are you all dense or something? That’s literally what the person was saying! But by pointing that out you all somehow try to paint the person as bigoted. That’s completely besides the point? Is someone else seeing what’s going on here?!
And other words change if they are acceptable or not. In our grandparent’s childhoods, it was usual to call a black person a n*****. Now it isn’t, and that’s a good thing, isn’t it?
But that’s not the point of the discussion? The person said that things that used to be fine can suddenly be not tolerated. People downvoted the person and claimed that’s not true.
Still is fine, you wont go to jail for accidently misgendering someone. At worst you may illicit an awkward cough in the room and maybe someone will take you aside later and be like “bruh they are (other gender) haha” and you would be like “Oh shit! My bad!” and that should typically be the end of it.
I’m a dude with just very long hair, cuz I like its style. I get misgendered all the time from the back, people call me a lady or ma’am all the time.
When they see me up close they often go “Oh geez Im sorry!” and I just laugh and tell them not to worry about it, it happens all the time. Thats about it. Thats the whole interaction.
Thats right, misgendering happens to cis people all the time too, and this type of social interaction is an ancient one that has been around for a millenia.
No one actually gives a shit.
Now if you PURPOSEFULLY misgender someone to try and hurt them…
That is actually a fucking problem and now you are being an asshole. But thats not just for trans folks! That applies to cis people just as much.
Let me ask you this: You walk into a bar with a biker gang, and a big burly dude is in there and you call him a woman, and he informs you sternly (cough) that he is a man, and you keep calling him a lady and are clearly trying to piss him off, you tell me how well that will probably turn out for you.
What the hell are you talking about?
In no way or form did I say it is okay to misgender someone.
Please try to understand what this discussion was about. It was about the very fact that words and things that were okay to say in the past, are sometimes not okay to say anymore today.
N***** used to just be the word for black people, coming from the word Latin “niger”([ˈnɪɡɛr]) and meaning the color black, almost every Romance language still uses it, but I would strongly suggest not using it in the USA.
??? So you agree?!
yes, I agree that we should all be allowed to say N***** because the only reason we can’t is because of Woke speech police! and while we are at it, why should anyone be upset with me that I point out the fact that the Holocaust never happened, and it was all orchestrated by (((them))) and how we should find a solution to (((them))), perhaps a rather final one.
How does this relate to anything I have written?
because when you support the reactionary, you support this as well
Except the person argued about what IS fine, not what WAS considered fine in the past. The person is literally arguing that we ought to be able to misgender people. They claim it is morally righteous to misgender trans people. Their reasoning is that people are only labeling misgendering as hate speech because they disagree with it, not because it is actually hate speech.
I provided good reasons as to why misgendering and promoting the conservative gender ideology that causes it is harmful, debunking their argument that the perspective is being labeled only due to disagreement. Let’s look back at their original argument.
The argument that hate speech laws could be used frivolously to silence those who disagree is a valid hypothetical concern. Where this person fucks up is by claiming things are already being labeled as hate speech even when they aren’t. This is suspect because there aren’t many places that seriously outlaw hate speech, and most of those places have yet to overstep the law in any real way.
In places like the US where people are at best, socially shunned for hate speech, it’s uncommon for people to falsely claim bigotry on a large scale. Usually when a false claim is made, the falsehood is in the description of events, not the moral principle being applied to.
When another poster pushes back, the person claims the conservative gender ideology isn’t hateful and is deemed as such because people disagree with it, and argument I showed to be lacking. It is hateful because it inherently promotes hate and discrimination. You’re trying to run interference for the poster by misunderstanding the moral principle that they appealed to.
They did not appeal to the idea that words get changed to make you look wrong for using the old definition. This would be like if “to flame” was understood to mean criticize, but everyone forgot that usage and then you said “we should flame that guy.” You meant something reasonable but people didn’t understand you. That’s what you claim is the problem when you say:
The poster claimed that the old definition is actually good and should still be used. I pointed out how that the old definition is problematic, even by the logic of the past. It excludes and includes people it shouldn’t which results in real harm. I laid out the real harm done by those definitions, allowing the poster to make an informed decision on whether to still hold that definition. If they still choose to insist on that old definition that harms a group of people for characteristics they didn’t choose, then they are a bigot. Harming a group for innate characteristics is bigotry.
TLDR: You ironically moved the goalposts and misunderstood what the poster was arguing. I did not prove them right in any way.
This is ridiculous, really. It does feel as if you were bots going aggressively off on a tangent with no connection to the content or context.
Or you are simply unwilling/unable to make a distinction between different levels of communication.
Do you agree that sometimes things were fine to say in the past and now they are considered hate speech? That was the topic of the discussion.
To prevent you and others from getting caught up in and endless loop of being triggered, I will provide another example instead: In the past it was okay to address a woman as “Fräulein X” when she was unmarried. And as “Frau X” when she was married (in German). No one cared about that, now, many people will considered it rude an bigoted and call you a sexist when doing it anyway.
Now that I think about it I feel it’s actually quite easy to find a few examples, and the question to the original poster to provide an example was seemingly just bait so you all can get enraged for a bit. And everyone who didn’t participate in the overall outrage, you generously consider and treat as a bigot you have to correct as well.
You need to learn that such things are a part of life and you have to deal with it in order to be a member of society. The existence of progress doesn’t negate the need for hate speech protection. All societies have to change with time and that’s okay.
I think you all forgot the purpose behind policies like freedom of speech and natural rights and that’s why you’re getting all mixed up.
What the hell are you talking about?
In no way or form did I say it is okay to misgender someone.
Please try to understand what this discussion was about. It was about the very fact that words and things that were okay to say in the past, are sometimes not okay to say anymore today.
Language will always be a moving target. If you said “woman used to mean x and now it means y” you’d be fine. The problem isn’t that language changes with us, it’s equivocation. Using women two different ways in a conversation is a dick move.
But I did not say it was a problem that it changes. I pointed out that it did indeed change and for some reason people get triggered by that.
I mean people are ‘triggered’ mostly by intentional asshattery. A 60yo coworker was talking to me about his trans (mtf) daughter yesterday and had the pronouns all fucked up, but it was obvious he loves his kid and wants what’s best for her. I think most people would give him some leeway. Going to a place very obviously over-represented by trans people and doing it makes it seem sort of intentional.
How does this relate to anything I have written?
It’s a situation where people won’t be triggered by language vs the people here trying to bait people. If you can’t see the relevance I don’t think I can lead you there.
Ah, so when someone transitions from woman to man and have a penis grafted on them, it makes them a man? Good on you to be so progressive.
Its doesnt “make” them a man, they ARE a man. I could care less if people want to switch sides, but pretending you’re no longer what your biology dictates is stupid.
If theyre a women, go get pregnant and carry a child to term, when I see that, theyre a woman.
Its not about politics, its not about religion, its about biological fact and commom sense.
Being “progressive” doesnt include ignorance of reality.
Well… Guess a lot women turn out to be men. We didn’t see them carry a child. Perhaps they will carry a child at some point, perhaps they won’t. But until then you can’t trust a single woman to be a woman until they have born a child in front of you.
You may want to get used to the idea that you’ve been attracted to men all along. I can help you with your coming out.
TIL my girlfriend is a man, according to this insane persons views on womanhood
I’m sorry you had to learn this way… I hope this doesn’t negatively impact your relationship with your boyfriend.
Today I learned infertile women are men. Women without children are men. Women who adopted but didn’t get pregnant and carry their children are men. Got it.
See how it’s not that cut and dry?
Must have taught yourself that one, as nobody ever said that.
This is the most insane thing I’ve ever read 😬
There is a difference between biological sex (male/female) and social gender (man/woman). Feel free to make this the hill you die on, if you’d like. My hill is the left fawning over tolerance for Islam without understanding that it’s an exclusivist fundamentalist proselytizing religion that has no sizeable liberal movements. There is no version of Islam that is like the Unitarians, UCC, etc where the holy book is understood to be a product of its times. Sufism is close insofar as their mysticism makes them chill, but they’re not universalists. I have no desire to import proselytizing religionists of any culture or creed, and certainly no tolerance for the same.
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What the hell planet have you been living on? Its done constantly.
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maybe you should stop watching conservative media, for example ditch Joe Rogan as a start.
LOL! Joe Rogan isn’t a Conservative. Libertarian at best.
what are you talking about, he is platforming and agreeing with everyone from the arch-conservatives all the way to the alt-right retards in the last few months.
He also agrees with a ton on the left, which is why I said Libertarian. If you actually listen to him it’s pretty impossible to miss he’s fiscally and constitutionally conservative and pretty damn liberal socially.
This is a definition dispute, not biological. Mostly anyway. I could have this conversation with a lot of people and it wouldn’t be any sort of hate speech, but it’s pretty obvious what you’re about here.