I think this kind of activism is much more effective than the Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellion people gluing themselves to roads and preventing ambulances from getting to hospitals.
Support for the climate movement has halved in two years in Germany because of these idiots.
While 68 percent of those surveyed in 2021 said they fundamentally supported the climate movement, the figure in the current publication has halved to 34 percent. What is striking is that support has declined significantly in all social groups, even in more progressive milieus that were otherwise more open to the movement.
When asked specifically about the “Last Generation” road blockades, 85 percent of those surveyed said they had no understanding of this form of protest.
Moderate change might be insufficient, but you are confusing the size of the change with the extremity of the process. The evidence seems to show that some forms of more extreme protest _reduce _ the prospects of change
That’s why I said we need a wide spectrum of movements.
A wide, moderate base for people to use their passive democratic rights is the base for more radical people actively demanding change.
As I said: look at the historical examples. Without the radical parts of the larger movements nothing would have changed.
Big movements on developed countries won’t change how developing countries will treat the climate going forward. Do you really believe on the numbers reported by China for example? Do you think that poor countries where millions of people starve care about not burning hydrocarbons? CO2 production is a game of scales and the little we can contribute is just that, little, very little in fact if compared to what big industries do around the world.
If we invest to develop the technology for e.g. clean energy then we can easily export it. If solar becomes dirt cheap and easy to install and maintain then it would be perfect for Africa where it’s mostly sunny. Solar would be cheaper and easier than burning hydrocarbons.
So it’s best to be a bad example? Why wouldn’t people then say “If very rich nations can’t even do it, then poorer nation surely can’t”, and suddenly nobody is doing anything?
Also: If you’re a developing country, why would you try to buy technology from 50 or 100 years ago? Why wouldn’t you buy low-cost technology of 2023, e. g. solar power? I don’t see the rock-solid connection that you are assuming.
Also: are you saying “developing countries might, in the future, emit lots of CO2” is an excuse for the current worst polluters to just continue? Would you accept it if I’m a serial robber and used the excuse “I expect a large number of poor people will commit a lot more robberies very soon”?
wow, chill bruh! I didn’t say I thought is wrong for those that can do it, do it. I criticised the apparent need for “revolution” over governments on developed countries. if you/me live in a developed country we are already doing better and will continue to do better, no doubt. Just don’t flatter yourself thinking that we must do this at any cost because other, poorer countries aren’t and won’t be for a very long time…
So I guess we just die? What is your solution?
All people of the world have to change what they CAN change. For me that is myself, my region and my country.
Support may have halved, but I can think of several possible reasons.
Maybe people decided it’s a lost cause, we’re on the sinking ship, and why not enjoy it while it lasts.
Maybe people realized that they would actually have to take moderate cuts, instead of just talking, doing little, and continuing as always (electing conservatives and neoliberals).
Maybe people fell for “Bild-Zeitung”'s campaigns (“a fraction of heating systems need to be changed out, with government financial assistance, by the year 2044” being portrayed as basically “the Green minister wants to forbid you from heating your home, starting next year”).
Maybe support wasn’t that sincere if it collapses that easily.
Maybe the last 3 years are not that different from the last 30 years. The rhetoric “please please think of how your children will live” in the last 30 years has impressed about 1 in 5 persons, but not more. 4 out of 5 just don’t care.
Maybe the surveys only got support because they presented the issue as “you won’t have to do or pay anything or have any inconvenience”.
A few years ago, FFF were dangerous, lazy idiots blind to reality who just want to skip school and who scare people unnecessarily.
FFF today is often portrayed as moderate and reasonable.
Why the change? Does FFF now seem acceptable because they are relatively quiet and marginalized and clearly no threat to the status quo?
Suppose theoretically, FFF held the same large, constant demonstrations as they did a few years ago. Suppose they looked like they could actually influence politics. Wouldn’t they again be seen as suspicious and impossible to support for decent reasonable people?
Extinction Rebellion doesn’t glue themselves to the road. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
They have e. g. put banners on public art works in the city, being very careful that they attach them in a non-damaging, easily reversible way. (They were called dangerous and radical for that.)
Support for the climate movement has halved in two years in Germany because of these idiots.
People who changed their minds on the topic of needed actions against climate change because of this, never were real allies to begin with! These people would have jumped ship anyway the first time they would be requried to do the slightest change to their way of life. The impact climate change has on all of our lifes already and will continue to do so even more, hasn’t changed on bit simply because LG pissed off some people. So people who changed their minds certainly don’t understand how deep in shit we’re already in. These either need to be truely convinced or dragged with us while they kick and scream through laws!
It’s very easy to say your in favor of doing “something” when nothing is being done and nothing is required of you. Fuck these people and it’s good that we see how far we still are from actually getting the population on our side.
We do not even know from this poll, if people changed their mind about needed actions against climate change at all. We just know, that they dislike the Last Generation.
I disagree. I’m an ally, I’ve mainly gone vegetarian, cycle a bike most days and have solar panels on my roof. But when Extinction Rebellion glues themselves to my train , or splashes paint across a painting in an art gallery that pisses me off.
If a pollster had asked me the day after ‘do you support the movement’, I wouldn’t have been giving a clear ‘absolutely yes’ answer.
When exactly has XR splashed paint across art works? Across meaningless glass in front of art works - yes. But when was it art works? (Also: was that XR? I can’t remember exactly, but I very much doubt it.)
Who on Earth glued themselves to trains? That’s even more absurd of you to say.
The question in the poll wasn’t about ER but the climate movement in general. To no longer support the general movement because of a radical part of it when the need for it is obvious, is rather short sighted to say the least!
Especially if people are pissed off more about ER than the actual companies and people in charge who have dug us into this shit hole in the first place.
What I am saying is that when one part of the climate change movement steals the headlines, they become the climate change movement in the public’s eyes - and this may bias survey answers.
You’re being reasonable. You can’t do that here. You seem to be a good person, you do your part, you’re productive, you are social in real life, you breathe outdoors but don’t dare to criticise “the movement” otherwise the self-elected majority will silence you because you’re wrong.
Supporting the climate movement and adapting environmental friendly habits are two different kind of shoes. That poll says nothing on how the Last Generation impacted stuff like voting decisions.
I think this kind of activism is much more effective than the Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellion people gluing themselves to roads and preventing ambulances from getting to hospitals.
Support for the climate movement has halved in two years in Germany because of these idiots.
Moderate change is insufficient. We need to reduce CO2 by 10% per year if we want to keep the 1.5° goal. We need a wide spectrum of civil protest.
Look at the history of womens’ voting rights. Or the anti vietnam war movement, or the no nukes movement.
Edit: The workers’ movements for 48 and 40 hour weeks were also militant, violent protests. Obedience is not everything in a democracy.
Moderate change might be insufficient, but you are confusing the size of the change with the extremity of the process. The evidence seems to show that some forms of more extreme protest _reduce _ the prospects of change
That’s why I said we need a wide spectrum of movements.
A wide, moderate base for people to use their passive democratic rights is the base for more radical people actively demanding change. As I said: look at the historical examples. Without the radical parts of the larger movements nothing would have changed.
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Big movements on developed countries won’t change how developing countries will treat the climate going forward. Do you really believe on the numbers reported by China for example? Do you think that poor countries where millions of people starve care about not burning hydrocarbons? CO2 production is a game of scales and the little we can contribute is just that, little, very little in fact if compared to what big industries do around the world.
If we invest to develop the technology for e.g. clean energy then we can easily export it. If solar becomes dirt cheap and easy to install and maintain then it would be perfect for Africa where it’s mostly sunny. Solar would be cheaper and easier than burning hydrocarbons.
People don’t seem to get that
there is no absolute, global decoupling happening. it is a lie used to propagate dreams of green growth.
If the rich countries who can easily afford being green won’t do it, why should the poor countries who cannot?
So it’s best to be a bad example? Why wouldn’t people then say “If very rich nations can’t even do it, then poorer nation surely can’t”, and suddenly nobody is doing anything?
Also: If you’re a developing country, why would you try to buy technology from 50 or 100 years ago? Why wouldn’t you buy low-cost technology of 2023, e. g. solar power? I don’t see the rock-solid connection that you are assuming.
Also: are you saying “developing countries might, in the future, emit lots of CO2” is an excuse for the current worst polluters to just continue? Would you accept it if I’m a serial robber and used the excuse “I expect a large number of poor people will commit a lot more robberies very soon”?
wow, chill bruh! I didn’t say I thought is wrong for those that can do it, do it. I criticised the apparent need for “revolution” over governments on developed countries. if you/me live in a developed country we are already doing better and will continue to do better, no doubt. Just don’t flatter yourself thinking that we must do this at any cost because other, poorer countries aren’t and won’t be for a very long time…
So I guess we just die? What is your solution? All people of the world have to change what they CAN change. For me that is myself, my region and my country.
Support may have halved, but I can think of several possible reasons.
Maybe people decided it’s a lost cause, we’re on the sinking ship, and why not enjoy it while it lasts.
Maybe people realized that they would actually have to take moderate cuts, instead of just talking, doing little, and continuing as always (electing conservatives and neoliberals).
Maybe people fell for “Bild-Zeitung”'s campaigns (“a fraction of heating systems need to be changed out, with government financial assistance, by the year 2044” being portrayed as basically “the Green minister wants to forbid you from heating your home, starting next year”).
Maybe support wasn’t that sincere if it collapses that easily.
Maybe the last 3 years are not that different from the last 30 years. The rhetoric “please please think of how your children will live” in the last 30 years has impressed about 1 in 5 persons, but not more. 4 out of 5 just don’t care.
Maybe the surveys only got support because they presented the issue as “you won’t have to do or pay anything or have any inconvenience”.
Etc.
A few years ago, FFF were dangerous, lazy idiots blind to reality who just want to skip school and who scare people unnecessarily.
FFF today is often portrayed as moderate and reasonable.
Why the change? Does FFF now seem acceptable because they are relatively quiet and marginalized and clearly no threat to the status quo?
Suppose theoretically, FFF held the same large, constant demonstrations as they did a few years ago. Suppose they looked like they could actually influence politics. Wouldn’t they again be seen as suspicious and impossible to support for decent reasonable people?
Extinction Rebellion doesn’t glue themselves to the road. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
They have e. g. put banners on public art works in the city, being very careful that they attach them in a non-damaging, easily reversible way. (They were called dangerous and radical for that.)
People who changed their minds on the topic of needed actions against climate change because of this, never were real allies to begin with! These people would have jumped ship anyway the first time they would be requried to do the slightest change to their way of life. The impact climate change has on all of our lifes already and will continue to do so even more, hasn’t changed on bit simply because LG pissed off some people. So people who changed their minds certainly don’t understand how deep in shit we’re already in. These either need to be truely convinced or dragged with us while they kick and scream through laws!
It’s very easy to say your in favor of doing “something” when nothing is being done and nothing is required of you. Fuck these people and it’s good that we see how far we still are from actually getting the population on our side.
We do not even know from this poll, if people changed their mind about needed actions against climate change at all. We just know, that they dislike the Last Generation.
I disagree. I’m an ally, I’ve mainly gone vegetarian, cycle a bike most days and have solar panels on my roof. But when Extinction Rebellion glues themselves to my train , or splashes paint across a painting in an art gallery that pisses me off.
If a pollster had asked me the day after ‘do you support the movement’, I wouldn’t have been giving a clear ‘absolutely yes’ answer.
When exactly has XR splashed paint across art works? Across meaningless glass in front of art works - yes. But when was it art works? (Also: was that XR? I can’t remember exactly, but I very much doubt it.)
Who on Earth glued themselves to trains? That’s even more absurd of you to say.
The question in the poll wasn’t about ER but the climate movement in general. To no longer support the general movement because of a radical part of it when the need for it is obvious, is rather short sighted to say the least!
Especially if people are pissed off more about ER than the actual companies and people in charge who have dug us into this shit hole in the first place.
What I am saying is that when one part of the climate change movement steals the headlines, they become the climate change movement in the public’s eyes - and this may bias survey answers.
You’re being reasonable. You can’t do that here. You seem to be a good person, you do your part, you’re productive, you are social in real life, you breathe outdoors but don’t dare to criticise “the movement” otherwise the self-elected majority will silence you because you’re wrong.
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Supporting the climate movement and adapting environmental friendly habits are two different kind of shoes. That poll says nothing on how the Last Generation impacted stuff like voting decisions.