So GDP isn’t a good measure to use for this. The price of goods is very different from country to country, and GDP often doesn’t translate to living conditions for the average person.
I tried to look up some information, since I don’t actually know which is the poorer country, and I had no idea how really bad it was in North Korea. Haiti is a nightmare also. People are starving in both countries, which of course means that things are real real bad. But…
Average annual income in Haiti is $1,760. That’s sure not great. Even with PPP, that’s bad.
It’s hard to tell anything about North Korea. But here’s what I found: Average legal annual income in North Korea is from 60,000 to 120,000 won. Guess how much an egg costs?
1,500 won.
A standard legal income in North Korea is from $12 to $36 per year.
80% of people supplement their income with some form of illegal free-market activity, obviously. And there are a certain amount of rations provided by the state in addition to straight wages. Otherwise, everyone would starve. The black market is tolerated to some extent, although it is technically illegal. It’s impossible to determine how much income is generated from it, so we have no idea.
A standard legal income in North Korea is from $12 to $36 per year.
That seems like it can’t possibly be true. Where is this statistic actually coming from? I can find a bunch of other unclearly-sourced estimates like $50/month, which is more more reasonable.
(Looking for actual papers I find this, which cites an estimate of $1700 purchasing-power-parity-GDP/year/capita. The paper itself estimates per-county wealth via radiance as seen from satellites, and gets “around $790 per capita and 60% poverty rate”. It’s pretty unclear how this can be price-adjusted but it’s not “100 eggs per year” low, at least.)
I have no idea how statistically solid the article’s estimate is. It goes into enough detail that I assumed it was reliable, which might have been a bad assumption, and I looked at some other sources more or less at random and they all roughly corroborated what it said. I do think that the published figures for what a normal “official” salary range in North Korea, and roughly what the black-market exchange rate of dollars to won and rough goods prices, are visible enough numbers that it’s not crazy to think that someone from the outside could know what they are.
Actual income levels from illegal free-market activity there is no way to know, so I didn’t try to estimate, and none of the sources I looked at made any attempt to claim they knew what the value was, which I counted as a point in their favor.
I’m not convinced by the paper. I don’t think GDP is too useful a metric for estimating poverty in a personal-impact sense, and even that aside, I’m not real convinced that measuring the literal brightness of a country from space is a good way to get anything more than somewhere in the same mega-ballpark distance of the answer. Especially when you’re dealing with an exceptional outlier and then applying a calculation you arrived at from measuring non-outliers to it.
As a general rule I just don’t trust what anyone says about North Korea, the whole thing is so propagandized from every angle you might as well be trying to figure out the average yearly income of the people on North Sentinel Island.
Can you show me some propaganda from the anti-North-Korea angle, and why it isn’t true?
I think there is pro-North Korea propaganda, and there is the truth which is horrifying and some people claim is propaganda. I’m not sure that much of the anti-North Korea stuff is propaganda. I’m open to being shown that I am wrong about that, though.
One, I didn’t say I believe “pro” North Korean propaganda. Just that there’s so many lies I don’t accept anything as true at face value.
Two, sure, as long as you show me how to prove a negative.
Which is actually possible, as it happens, but it’s a lot more work than I’m interested in doing for a topic I literally just said is beset by propaganda on both sides. If you want to believe every criticism you hear about an objectively fucked up neo-monarchy is true, go for it.
I am saying that I don’t believe that it is beset by propaganda on both sides. I believe it’s beset by propaganda and lies on one side, and the other side is mostly just the truth.
You’re not required to be interested in showing me why I’m wrong, of course. I was just curious.
Edit: Also… how in the world is “can you show me some propaganda from the anti-North-Korea angle” asking you to prove a negative? I’m the one claiming more or less a blanket negative, and politely asking for one counterexample if you feel like providing one.
Jesus Christ.
So GDP isn’t a good measure to use for this. The price of goods is very different from country to country, and GDP often doesn’t translate to living conditions for the average person.
I tried to look up some information, since I don’t actually know which is the poorer country, and I had no idea how really bad it was in North Korea. Haiti is a nightmare also. People are starving in both countries, which of course means that things are real real bad. But…
Average annual income in Haiti is $1,760. That’s sure not great. Even with PPP, that’s bad.
It’s hard to tell anything about North Korea. But here’s what I found: Average legal annual income in North Korea is from 60,000 to 120,000 won. Guess how much an egg costs?
1,500 won.
A standard legal income in North Korea is from $12 to $36 per year.
80% of people supplement their income with some form of illegal free-market activity, obviously. And there are a certain amount of rations provided by the state in addition to straight wages. Otherwise, everyone would starve. The black market is tolerated to some extent, although it is technically illegal. It’s impossible to determine how much income is generated from it, so we have no idea.
Here’s more: https://www.nknews.org/2022/02/whats-in-it-for-the-working-man-why-north-koreans-show-up-for-low-wage-jobs/
Honestly, if I had to guess, I think the Haitians probably have it worse off economically. Congratulations NK! You’re not worst in the world.
That seems like it can’t possibly be true. Where is this statistic actually coming from? I can find a bunch of other unclearly-sourced estimates like $50/month, which is more more reasonable.
(Looking for actual papers I find this, which cites an estimate of $1700 purchasing-power-parity-GDP/year/capita. The paper itself estimates per-county wealth via radiance as seen from satellites, and gets “around $790 per capita and 60% poverty rate”. It’s pretty unclear how this can be price-adjusted but it’s not “100 eggs per year” low, at least.)
I have no idea how statistically solid the article’s estimate is. It goes into enough detail that I assumed it was reliable, which might have been a bad assumption, and I looked at some other sources more or less at random and they all roughly corroborated what it said. I do think that the published figures for what a normal “official” salary range in North Korea, and roughly what the black-market exchange rate of dollars to won and rough goods prices, are visible enough numbers that it’s not crazy to think that someone from the outside could know what they are.
Actual income levels from illegal free-market activity there is no way to know, so I didn’t try to estimate, and none of the sources I looked at made any attempt to claim they knew what the value was, which I counted as a point in their favor.
I’m not convinced by the paper. I don’t think GDP is too useful a metric for estimating poverty in a personal-impact sense, and even that aside, I’m not real convinced that measuring the literal brightness of a country from space is a good way to get anything more than somewhere in the same mega-ballpark distance of the answer. Especially when you’re dealing with an exceptional outlier and then applying a calculation you arrived at from measuring non-outliers to it.
As a general rule I just don’t trust what anyone says about North Korea, the whole thing is so propagandized from every angle you might as well be trying to figure out the average yearly income of the people on North Sentinel Island.
Ah, it’s like arguing with a conservative and then hearing them say, “But who knows what’s REALLY true?”
Sure bro. That’s exactly what this famously propagandized topic is like.
Yes, it’s exactly what the topic is like. There isn’t a goddamn topic in existence that isn’t ‘famously propagandized’ to someone.
It’s not any better than the people exercising arbitrary skepticism about the Soviet Union or the PRC.
Okay buddy “anarchist” 👍
what
You’ve claimed to be an anarchist before.
Having trouble keeping your positions of convenience straight, huh?
While beefing with the idea that you should apply critical thought to claims made by both nations and media. Weird.
Feel free to quote me, because I’ve never claimed to be an anarchist.
Maybe improve your reading comprehension before making accusations.
Critical thought is arbitrary skepticism, I see.
Walk me through how these claims would contradict.
Can you show me some propaganda from the anti-North-Korea angle, and why it isn’t true?
I think there is pro-North Korea propaganda, and there is the truth which is horrifying and some people claim is propaganda. I’m not sure that much of the anti-North Korea stuff is propaganda. I’m open to being shown that I am wrong about that, though.
One, I didn’t say I believe “pro” North Korean propaganda. Just that there’s so many lies I don’t accept anything as true at face value.
Two, sure, as long as you show me how to prove a negative.
Which is actually possible, as it happens, but it’s a lot more work than I’m interested in doing for a topic I literally just said is beset by propaganda on both sides. If you want to believe every criticism you hear about an objectively fucked up neo-monarchy is true, go for it.
I am saying that I don’t believe that it is beset by propaganda on both sides. I believe it’s beset by propaganda and lies on one side, and the other side is mostly just the truth.
You’re not required to be interested in showing me why I’m wrong, of course. I was just curious.
Edit: Also… how in the world is “can you show me some propaganda from the anti-North-Korea angle” asking you to prove a negative? I’m the one claiming more or less a blanket negative, and politely asking for one counterexample if you feel like providing one.
Get out of here ya fuckin’ westoid /s
wtf is a WeStIoD dUfUs???
/s