I would argue that not voting is ultimately the epitome of selfishness and a sign of unacknowledged privilege. Sure, you may be fine either way and the outcome may not matter to you, but I can guarantee it matters to other people in your life.
You do realize there are people that genuinely don’t care about presidential elections at all. They have no interest in politics, they just go about their lives and ignore anything like that.
Are they supposed to just flip that coin? I’ve known people that that is exactly how they would decide who to vote for if voting was mandatory. That seems a lot worse than abstaining.
Or are they supposed to vote for who they’re told to vote for? Who are they supposed to listen to?
Privilege or not, there are people like that, and I frankly would rather them stay home than risk them voting “for the joke of it”. And there were people that voted for trump for exactly that reason. They thought it would be hilarious.
That kind of person? If them not voting is selfish, I’m okay with that.
“You do realize there are people that genuinely don’t care about presidential elections at all. They have no interest in politics, they just go about their lives and ignore anything like that.“
And that’s exactly the kind of privilege I am talking about. If you have women in your life, than this election matters. Do you have people of color in your life? Than this election matters. LGBTQIA+? Economically disadvantaged? People with a life expectancy of more than 10 more years? Than this election matters.
Just because they don’t have an interest in politics doesn’t protect them from having culpability for what happens.
As for who they vote for, that’s on them. Pretty sure reading for like 15mins would indicate to most people how they should vote according to their own beliefs.
Democracy is never better for not having had the participation of as many as possible. Indeed, democracies biggest failures are always the result of too few taking part.
I agree with you that the current goal has to be stopping the erosion of human and civil rights. It’s more important in general, and to me personally, than my long term preferences regarding our government. I could wish it were otherwise, but as my mamaw used to say, if you wish in one hand and shit in the other, you’ll only have to wash one of them.
I think every election matters, not just presidential ones. Every election is a chance at change for whatever the person thinks is better.
I just don’t agree that voting should be mandatory, nor that everyone voting is better. An engaged, educated, and egalitarian population, I would absolutely want everyone voting. But we don’t have that. For me, if a person isn’t actually voting their conscience, and/or isn’t willing to read for fifteen minutes, it’s no better than rolling dice.
I don’t particularly care if they’re staying out of it from privilege, from apathy, from opposition to the system. It’s their choice.
Besides, not voting is voting. It’s saying “you guys decide”. A non voter is voting for other people to handle things. That’s a valid choice.
I don’t think we’re talking at cross purposes. I think we just disagree on whether disengagement is a “valid” choice.
“I just don’t agree that voting should be mandatory, nor that everyone voting is better. An engaged, educated, and egalitarian population“
Very Jeffersonian of you, but Jefferson was kind of a piece of shit when it came to anyone who wasn’t a property owning white man.
Twenty-one countries have compulsory voting. It’s not only doable, it’s not even hard. And it stops people from being able to claim distance from the act of self-governance that’s at the heart of democracy.
In the US in particular we’ve been brainwashed for almost a century that discussing politics is taboo, that being interested in politics is weird, and that not being involved is somehow some form of enlightened centerism. The only people that benefits are the people who can take advantage when most eligible people don’t cast ballots.
“Besides, not voting is voting. It’s saying “you guys decide”. A non voter is voting for other people to handle things. That’s a valid choice.”
And this is the big lie. You can submit a blank ballot or a “None of the above” in those places that require voting for those wishing to take some stance on principle. Not casting a ballot isn’t a choice, and it’s not saying other people should decide how to handle things. It’s saying either I’m so privileged that I can’t be bothered or I’m too lazy to bother to do the one thing our country asks of every adult. And more than anything it increases the distance between the government and the governed, which leads to the delegitimization of the government.
Every time I hear someone say they don’t believe in as many people as possible participating in democracy, what I’m actually hearing is they don’t believe in democracy.
Maybe people should vote because that’s a good civic responsibility. When we leave voting to the older generations that vote in larger numbers we end up with candidates that cater to their needs first.
I would argue that not voting is ultimately the epitome of selfishness and a sign of unacknowledged privilege. Sure, you may be fine either way and the outcome may not matter to you, but I can guarantee it matters to other people in your life.
So, they’re supposed to vote for who?
You do realize there are people that genuinely don’t care about presidential elections at all. They have no interest in politics, they just go about their lives and ignore anything like that.
Are they supposed to just flip that coin? I’ve known people that that is exactly how they would decide who to vote for if voting was mandatory. That seems a lot worse than abstaining.
Or are they supposed to vote for who they’re told to vote for? Who are they supposed to listen to?
Privilege or not, there are people like that, and I frankly would rather them stay home than risk them voting “for the joke of it”. And there were people that voted for trump for exactly that reason. They thought it would be hilarious.
That kind of person? If them not voting is selfish, I’m okay with that.
And that’s exactly the kind of privilege I am talking about. If you have women in your life, than this election matters. Do you have people of color in your life? Than this election matters. LGBTQIA+? Economically disadvantaged? People with a life expectancy of more than 10 more years? Than this election matters.
Just because they don’t have an interest in politics doesn’t protect them from having culpability for what happens.
As for who they vote for, that’s on them. Pretty sure reading for like 15mins would indicate to most people how they should vote according to their own beliefs.
Democracy is never better for not having had the participation of as many as possible. Indeed, democracies biggest failures are always the result of too few taking part.
We’re kinda talking at cross purposes here.
I agree with you that the current goal has to be stopping the erosion of human and civil rights. It’s more important in general, and to me personally, than my long term preferences regarding our government. I could wish it were otherwise, but as my mamaw used to say, if you wish in one hand and shit in the other, you’ll only have to wash one of them.
I think every election matters, not just presidential ones. Every election is a chance at change for whatever the person thinks is better.
I just don’t agree that voting should be mandatory, nor that everyone voting is better. An engaged, educated, and egalitarian population, I would absolutely want everyone voting. But we don’t have that. For me, if a person isn’t actually voting their conscience, and/or isn’t willing to read for fifteen minutes, it’s no better than rolling dice.
I don’t particularly care if they’re staying out of it from privilege, from apathy, from opposition to the system. It’s their choice.
Besides, not voting is voting. It’s saying “you guys decide”. A non voter is voting for other people to handle things. That’s a valid choice.
I don’t think we’re talking at cross purposes. I think we just disagree on whether disengagement is a “valid” choice.
Very Jeffersonian of you, but Jefferson was kind of a piece of shit when it came to anyone who wasn’t a property owning white man.
Twenty-one countries have compulsory voting. It’s not only doable, it’s not even hard. And it stops people from being able to claim distance from the act of self-governance that’s at the heart of democracy.
In the US in particular we’ve been brainwashed for almost a century that discussing politics is taboo, that being interested in politics is weird, and that not being involved is somehow some form of enlightened centerism. The only people that benefits are the people who can take advantage when most eligible people don’t cast ballots.
And this is the big lie. You can submit a blank ballot or a “None of the above” in those places that require voting for those wishing to take some stance on principle. Not casting a ballot isn’t a choice, and it’s not saying other people should decide how to handle things. It’s saying either I’m so privileged that I can’t be bothered or I’m too lazy to bother to do the one thing our country asks of every adult. And more than anything it increases the distance between the government and the governed, which leads to the delegitimization of the government.
Every time I hear someone say they don’t believe in as many people as possible participating in democracy, what I’m actually hearing is they don’t believe in democracy.
Is this really pleasant? Back handed insults are still insults.
Isn’t the point of this place to first be decent to each other?
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If someone doesn’t care and doesn’t notice, they are acting on their privilege.
Maybe people should vote because that’s a good civic responsibility. When we leave voting to the older generations that vote in larger numbers we end up with candidates that cater to their needs first.
The US should have compulsory voting IMO.