tl;dr: Be excellent to each other, do something constructive here?
I’m not sure anymore where the Threadiverse is headed. (The Threadiverse being this threaded part of the Fediverse, i.e. Lemmy, MBin, PieFed, …)
In my time here, I’ve met a lot of nice people and had meaningful conversations and learned lots of things. At the same time, it’s always been a mixed bag. We’ve always had quite some argumentative people here, trolls, … I’ve seen people hate on and yell at each other, and do all kinds of destructive things. My issue with that is: Negative behavior is disproportionately affecting the atmosphere. And I’d argue we have nowhere enough nice behavior to even that out.
I don’t see Lemmy grow for quite some time now. Seems it’s now leveling off at a bit less that 50k monthly active users. And I don’t see how that’d change. I’m missing some clear vision/idea of where we want to be headed. And I miss an atmosphere that makes people want to join or stay here, of all of the places on the internet. The saying is: “If you don’t go forwards you go backwards”. I’m not sure if this applies… At least we’re not shrinking anymore.
And I’m always unsure if the tone and atmosphere here changes subtly and gradually. I’ve always disagreed with a few dynamics here. But lately it feels like we’re on the decline, at least to me. I occasionally keep an eye on the votes on my comments. And seems I’m getting fewer of them. Sometimes I reply to a post and not a single person interacts. Even OP seems to have abandoned their post moments after writing it. And also for nuanced and longer replies, I regularly don’t get more than one or two upvotes. I think that used to be a bit better at some point. And I see the same thing happening with other peoples’ comments. So it’s not just me writing low-quality comments. What does work is stating simple truths. I regularly get some incoming votes with those. But my vision of this place isn’t spreading simple truths, but have proper and meaningful discussions, learn things and new perspectives or just mingle with people or talk. But judging by the votes I observe, that isn’t appreciated by the community here.
Another pet peeve of mine is the link aggregator aspect of Lemmy. I’d say at least 80% of Lemmy is about dumping some political (or tech) news articles. Lots of them don’t generate any engagement. Lots of them are really low-effort. OP just dumps something somewhere, no body text added, no info about what’s interesting about it. And people don’t even read those articles. They just read the title and react (emotionally) to that. In the end probably neither OP nor the audience read the article and it’s just littering the place. Burying and diminishing other, meaningful content. (With that said: There are also nice (news) discussions going on at the same time. And Lemmy is meant to be a link aggregator. It’s just that my perception is: it’s skewed towards low quality, low engagement and random noise.)
A few people here also don’t really like political debate. And there’s no escape from it here on Lemmy since so much revolves around that. And nowadays politics is about strong opinions, emotions and emotional reactions. And often limited to that. The dynamics of Lemmy reinforce the negative aspect of that, because the time when you’re most incentivized to reply or react is, when it triggers some strong emotion in you, for example you strongly disagree with a comment and that makes you want to counter it and write your own opinion underneath. If you agree, you don’t feel a strong emotion and you don’t reply. And the majority of users seems to also forget to upvote in that case, as I lined out earlier. And we also don’t write nuanced answers, dissect complex things and examine it from all angles. That’s just effort and it’s not as rewarding for the brain to do that as it is pointing out that someone is wrong. So it just fosters an atmosphere of being argumentative.
Prospect
I think we have several ways of steering the community:
- Technology: Features in the software, design choices that foster good behavior.
- Moderation: Give toxic people the boot, or delete content that drags down the place. Following: What remains is nice people and not adverse content.
- The community
I’d say 1 and 2 go without saying. (Not that everything is perfect with those…) But it really boils down to 3: The community. This is a fairly participatory place. We are the ones shaping the tone and atmosphere. And it’s our place. It’s kind of our obligation to care for it if we want to see it go somewhere. Isn’t it?
So what’s your vision of this place? Do you have some idea on where you’d like it to go? Practical ideas on how to achieve it?
Do you even agree with my perception of the dynamics here, and the implications and conclusions I came up with?
Thanks for your nuanced comments. I’ve never moderated any community worth mentioning, so that’s quite some additional insight for me. I’m not entirely new to this either, as you might have deducted from my account age. I’ve moved away from lemmy.ml as my own values don’t properly align with theirs. Then I lost an account because the instance I was on died. And recently I switched to PieFed and that’s my current account. But all in all I’ve been here since well before the exodus. Still, I think we have a different perspective. I’ve attended a bit more to the technical side and using it, while you’ve been fostering a community, which I didn’t do at all.
I’m not sure what to make of your “helped me get through feeling much like OP”. I’m not sure if I have to come to terms with how things are. Or if we instead should improve the place to become what I (and other people?) envision it to be. Sure, it’s not black and white. And when you’re doing critism (as I did), you focus on the negatives. I tried to also mention the other side. But due to the nature of this post, it’s not been the focus.
I’ll take some more time thinking about what you and all the other people said. I definitely see the potential of this platform. And that’s why I’m here. I also see some issues and lack of progress with some things. And that hurts because I like this place. And I kind of refuse to accept it and change my expectations. I don’t want it to be perfect. But there’s quite some room for improvement (I think) and that made me speak up and post this.
I’ve talked extensively with Blaze and others on the Fedigrow community about pretty much your exact set of bullet points over the past few months and the shine started to wear off Lemmy for a bit. You’re far from alone in feeling how you described in your post, as can be seen in most of the replies here.
I think it’s just taking a step back and being able to appreciate what we do have. We haven’t turned into some complete right/left hellhole, the top posts everyday add up to thousands of comments, we have some quality content providers, and some really fun commenters. I certainly wouldn’t be ashamed to show someone my Lemmy feed.
It’s good that you still have the drive to want to keep improving things around here in the ways you feel comfortable contributing to. Many initial hurdles to getting on Lemmy feel resolved, and so many in apps are equal to the Reddit apps for most use cases. Many initial accounts were probably from people trying to figure things out. I know I had like 5 accounts and only really use 1 now.
I think we’ve just hit a plateau for now. My personal feeling is working on the culture is our best way forward to be different than Reddit and to pick up more people looking to escape the toxicity. The time to set our tolerance levels for certain behaviors is now before we get too big to reign it in. We’re a pretty good group now, and I hope it stays this way or gets a little better like last summer.
I’m glad when I see people speak up like this though. It makes us all reflect on the guys and bad we see here and to think about where we stand ourselves in all of it.
Thanks for the clarification. I think we’re on the same page. Especially the following resonates with me:
And I’d agree we need to do that in the context of what we have. Have a step back and think before doing something.
I don’t want to see that as an excuse to stay inert, though. But at the same time we may not skip it.
I frequently disagree with the Lemmy developers’ take on things. But what I give them high credit for, is not to prefer growth above other things. I wrote this post now, because I think the Reddit exodus is far away now. Things have settled. And the argument “let things settle first” is out of the way now. And as you pointed out we might have reached a steady plateau for now. I think that’s a comfortable position from where we can decide what to do.
Feel free to join !fedigrow@lemm.ee / https://palaver.p3x.de/c/fedigrow@lemm.ee
We regularly discuss the potential improvements you were suggesting in this post
Thanks for inviting me. I’ll see if I have something meaningful to contribute. As of now I’m not really involved in growing communities. Well, at least not as a moderator. Maybe I should try it.
It’s also a place for regular posters, or even just people interesting in discussing how to make Lemmy grow, regardless of their posting profile