In short:

Don’t say “Toxic Masculinity”, it hurts men’s feelings. Say “Harmful Gender Expectations”
Don’t say “Patriarchy”, it hurts men’s feelings. Say “Systemic Gender Expectations”
Don’t say “Feminism”, it (sorta) hurts men’s feelings. Say “Gender Equality or Egalitarianism”

Edit: due to some justified criticism I want to clarify a few things here.

  1. “It hurts men’s feeling” is not the only reason why these things are bad.

  2. I shouldn’t have said “It hurts men’s feelings” because I don’t know all men. It probably only hurts the feelings of a small minority of men. I still maintain that this is justification enough to stop using these phrases.

  3. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, that people kinda don’t respect how damned important it is to not hurt men’s feelings. I presented my post in the way that I did to put empathy for men front and center. But to be fair, I’m not the best at the empathy thing. Still I’m a little disappointed by the response. Maybe a bit more emphasis on how justified the hurt feelings are would have helped?

  4. I changed the title from “Stop saying “Toxic Masculinity”, “Patriarchy”, and yes, even “Feminism”” to “People in the mainstream should stop saying “Toxic Masculinity”, “Patriarchy”, and yes, even “Feminism””. I wasn’t trying to tell the people of the magazine what they should be allowed to say or not say. I was trying to suggest that we change what is considered acceptable in polite discourse (aka the overtone window). Kinda like how it’s not so acceptable to say fireman anymore, you say firefighter instead. It shouldn’t be acceptable to say “feminism” when talking referring to a gender equality movement.

But let’s get into the details, starting with the easiest.

Toxic Masculinity

It doesn’t take a genius to recognize that saying that phrase seems to imply that masculinity is toxic. I understand that the true intent here is to talk about harmful gender expectations placed on men and the impact it has on the people who try to live up to these expectations.

Which is why it so ironic that men’s reaction to such loaded and negative terminology seems to be: “Hrmph, I’m a MAN and I won’t let people show that I’m bothered by something so trivial as terminology.”

Don’t say “Toxic Masculinity”, it hurts men’s feelings and that’s reason enough. Say “Harmful Gender Expectations”, that IS what you meant when you used the phrase right?

Patriarchy

The patriarchy is a complex system of, often oppressive, gender expectations. AKA systemic gender expectations.

The ones we tend to see most places is one that seems to have more men than women in positions of high authority.

Those well versed in gender theory understand that this is just one of many interconnected symptoms and is in no way the “root cause” of the situation. There is no root cause, it is a complex systemic problem.

But when you call it Patriarchy, that’s not how it’s perceived. It’s perceived as something that’s caused by men to benefit men and place them in power.

But it’s a systemic issue that harms both men and women in certain ways and benefits both men and women in other ways and often, it’s not the same people receiving the benefits as those who are harmed by it.

But the use of the gendered term Patriarchy naturally leads to gendered terminology for these otherwise symmetric phenomenon:

  • For things that harm women it’s “Misogyny”.
  • For things that harm men it’s “The patriarchy backfires on men”
  • For things that benefit men it’s “Misogyny, male privilege or oppression”
  • For things that benefit women “Benevolent Sexism”

Exposure to this kind of language, especially for men prone to anxiety can lead to undue internalized guilt.

Which again, because of harmful gender expectation, men by and large fail to complain about this problem and it goes unaddressed.

So here again, please stop saying “Patriarchy”, it hurts men’s feelings.

Feminism

That’s right. Even this one is problematic. Now I understand that feminism has great many different factions and that there isn’t one definition to rule it all.

There is some self-identified feminists who unapologetically advocate for female supremacy, openly hate men and wish to see them be oppressed. And if these people want to have the term “Feminism”, I say let them have it.

But for those who truly want to fight for gender equality, you can’t have it. It just doesn’t make any sense. It’s in the word Feminism. It’s a movement dedicated to women, not men. You cannot run an effective truly egalitarian movement under that banner.

At this point I can only speak for myself, because I’m shocked by how few men are bothered by this. But I cannot accept or identify with a purported gender egalitarian movement that failed before it said anything because it could not find a way to give itself a gender neutral name.

But here’s the thing. It’s literally taken me decades to understand this problem, as obvious as it may seem. But also sometimes I can be quite clueless too.

But all this to bring it back to this post’s mantra: while younger men may not be explicitly complaining about this particular issue with feminism. I’m sure they understand that something feels off.

So yes, please stop saying “Feminism”: it hurts men’s feelings.

Or more accurately it makes men feel uncomfortable enough to refuse to join your cause.

And NO, it’s not too much a bother. Men’s feelings are important too. As a society we’ve updated a ton of terminology to make sure that women feel welcome in all aspects of society. This is NOT too much to ask to help men feel welcome in the discussion for gender equality.

  • Dienervent@kbin.socialOP
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    1 year ago

    I have no problem with these terms. Toxic masculinity is a descriptive term for a harmful set of behaviors. It’s good to have descriptive terms.

    Ok so it doesn’t bother you… Who cares? It bothers ME and many other men. For comparison, the N-word doesn’t really bother me personally in of itself. But I don’t use it, I wouldn’t tolerate anyone else using it in my presence because I know how much it bothers other people and what it means to them.

    When it comes to “Toxic Masculinity”. I personally find this terminology EXTREMELY insulting, reductive and I think it’s harmful to the general gender discourse. If you have any empathy in you, I’d like you to consider trying to use alternatives. And I’m far from the only one who feels this way. Seriously, I find that terminology truly disgusting.

    Someone who generalizes “toxic masculinity” to all male behavior is just wrong, and would be with or without the term.

    Yes, and that’s another huge problem. People get things wrong all the time. And in this case it can actually be quite harmful. All I’m asking is that you use less pejorative terminology.

    And one of the weirdest thing with this one is the irony.

    So I just did a web search for what is toxic masculinity. According to that page, one of the defining traits is this one:

    Antifeminity: This involves the idea that men should reject anything that is considered to be feminine, such as showing emotion or accepting help.

    Men in general will be averse to expressing their concerns because they’re worried it will make them appear weak, emotional or feminine.

    That’s why it’s so important for those of us engaged in the gender discourse to choose our terminology in an empathic and considerate manner.

    It’s good to have descriptive terms.

    And that is also my point. “Toxic” is not descriptive. Go search online for the word and I guarantee you that you’ll find a ton of stuff trying to sell you useless things an mischaracterizing how bad the thing they’re trying to “cure” really is and mischaracterizing in what way that thing is bad.

    “Toxic Masculinity” is ripe for misinterpretation and I would never qualify it as being “descriptive”.

    Harmful gender expectations is descriptive. It’s true that it may not be appropriate for all circumstances where someone might use “Toxic Masculinity” and that’s a good thing. It’s because it actually is a descriptive term, whereas “Toxic Masculinity” is kinda of an amorphous catch all term. It is not descriptive.

    To put it in a different context. Let’s say someone mentions “The problem of lazy Mexicans”. And I tell him, please don’t say that: it’s racist. And the guy replies:

    You misunderstood me. I was in no way implying that Mexicans are lazy. I was talking about a very well researched phenomenon that due to a combination of cultural and climate influences many Mexicans find themselves adopting a set of counterproductive behaviors. There is ample research on this and what steps can be taken to go from a lazy Mexican to a prosperous Mexican.

    Unfortunately, changing habits and long held traditions is psychologically difficult to accept even when the benefits are so clear. This is why so many Mexicans seem to be focusing on the terminology instead of the actual discourse as some kind of ego defense mechanism.

    Other than those reactionary Mexicans no one interprets it this way. So we’re not going to start rewriting all of our literature just for this.

    • iceonfire1@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Thanks for the response.

      I have no wish to hurt your feelings. Much the opposite, people should absolutely support each other. However, I think you may be projecting some negativity that you experienced onto these terms. The language isn’t the problem, it’s the context.

      You say to use “harmful” instead of toxic, because “harmful” isn’t descriptive. The words are synonyms, friend.

      You say “gender expectations” is somehow better defined than “masculinity”? I’m sorry, but these refer to totally different things and “gender” is obviously less specific than “masculine”. You literally just posted part of a definition for “toxic masculinity” yourself, showing that it is a well-defined term.

      I think you are saying that you feel “toxic masculinity” confers a negative feeling about masculinity in general. I disagree. It refers to specific, harmful behaviors that are only associated with masculinity by mistake.

      Unfortunately, there is a danger to dropping these terms as you suggest. The danger is that the related problems are not discussed.

      Lastly, I will say that in your example well-researched racism still very much counts as racism. Please do not think that this kind of example encourages people to discuss with you. It does not.

      • Spectrum8044@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        there is a danger to dropping these terms as you suggest. The danger is that the related problems are not discussed.

        The problems are only being discussed now because it was finally realised that men’s gender expectations are negatively affecting women.

        The men’s movements of the 80s and 90s (which originally coined the term TM) already worked out that men suffer under harmful gender expectations. Nobody gave a crap. Here we are, 35-40 years later, and we only give a crap because of #metoo.