West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin, a conservative Democrat, officially filed as an independent Friday. “My commitment to do everything I can to bring out country together has led me to register as …
A lot of very vocal people on the online left (particularly those around here on Lemmy and twitter) love to scream that they are the true leftist and all others are centrist or worse liberals. (I’m sure you’ve seen people “on the left” calling people they don’t like liberals around here, I see it all the time. They use it in the same breath of calling people fascist.)
It’s stupid as hell and is so prevalent that it seems like an organized effort to make leftist spaces online unfriendly to leftist so that they can’t actually unite on anything.
Absolutely on point. I actively debate with these knuckleheads to substantiate counterpoint for the more passive users. There’s no changing their minds, but I’m not leaving disinformation unchallenged just to linger and create misinformation through others.
Lemmy has a few folks that like to label anyone being pragmatic as a “centrist.”
Anyone that looks at West Virginian’s voting records for federal, state, and local offices knows that Joe Manchin’s seat is almost certainly going Republican in 2024.
I only like Manchin because his existence helps put Chuck Schumer on top of the senate.
I’ve argued for years that while I don’t like Manchin personally, he is far superior to any Republican he has run against.
He votes for the good of the country more often than “centrist” Republicans like john McCain or Lisa Murkowski ever have. He has been a blessing to this country and the world.
I’ll say this, even if he voted against the party 100% of the time, anyone that caucuses with the DNC if a vote toward giving Chuck the gavel. That means no stupid Biden impeachment trials, no brining dumb legislation to the floor that won’t get signed, etc etc.
In 6 months Manchin is likely to be replaced with a GOP candidate who supports Trump’s coup attempt. That was always the alternative to Manchin, not some sort of West Virginian Bernie Sanders.
If you’ve got a way to ensure that West Virginia’s newly opening seat is filled by someone more progressive than Manchin, we’re all ears. A lot of us would love that.
Right now Governor Jim Justice ®, a coup supporter who just banned abortion for all stages of pregnancy, is polling at 60 to 70% for Manchin’s seat.
I haven’t heard any alternative solutions out of you.
Once again, in the spirit of an actual constructive conversation, how would you get someone more progressive into a West Virginia federal senatorial seat?
How would you pull that off in a state where the guy banning abortions is winning by massive margin in the current race?
Once again, in the spirit of an actual constructive conversation, how would you get someone more progressive into a West Virginia federal senatorial seat?
Why is your arbitrary bullshit goal the one I need to meet before I can level any criticism at your god?
Manchin is leaving the senate because he knows he will lose if he runs again. Moving to the right has failed. Democrats have no one who can win they can run in that state. There’s none to Manchin’s right.
So who would you run for that seat? You can’t run Manchin, he can’t win anymore and even he knows it.
I would work on getting progressives elected in better states. Manchin is wet dogshit on his single best day, and it’s why centrists will always go to bat for him.
I would work on getting progressives elected in better states.
Exactly. And I’m just saying that it’s pragmatic to also get less extreme conservatives elected in conservative states while also getting real progressives elected in better states. You do both and take anything that moves the needle toward progress.
The pragmatist argument for him was that he is probably the most progressive thing you’re going to get out of state that overwhelmingly voted for Trump.
Does he suck? Yes. But when he’s gone, that state is highly likely to vote R when an incumbent isn’t on the ballot. Progressives don’t win a lot of seats in West Virgina. The state senate and house is 90+% republican.
He’s a butt in a chair that allows Dems to have a majority and caucusing with the Dems prevents the GOP from controlling the legislation that is brought to the floor in the Senate. His voting record it’s shit. It’s only about 75% in favor of the most progressive stuff brought to a vote. The other dems vote with the party over 90% of the time.
Literally nothing has changed except for a single noun. He’s still caucusing with the democrats, so the Dems still have 51 / 49 control.
They’d still have control with 50 / 50 + Harris, but the tighter the margin, the harder it gets to move shit forward.
And that said, there’s not even much of a need to push stuff through the Senate in the next 6 months. The politicians are now in campaign mode, not legislative mode.
Manchin can call himself whatever he wants. It doesn’t really matter right now.
It’s called a majority because 51 out of 100 is a majority. 50+1 people caucusing for the DNC gives the more progressive party the majority leader’s gavel and control over what comes to the floor.
Manchin’s desk could be filled by gorilla in a top hat, but as long as that gorilla is caucusing with the Dems, then it is a vote for a Democratic majority leader.
You have two options:
a conservative + a seat counting for a GOP majority leader + very few votes in favor of more progressive legislation
a conservative + a seat counting for a DNC majority leader + an occasional vote in favor of more progressive legislation
Those have been the two options out of West Virgina. That’s it. Gravity is real, the world is round, and West Virginians put super conservative people on the ballot.
Most people that want him in that seat don’t want him for his politics. They want him because of grade school arithmetic.
When I criticize Democrats for getting so little of what they promise done, some apologist is quick to insist that the Democrats haven’t had a majority in the senate and that Manchin doesn’t count.
Now that someone’s saying that your god is imperfect, he’s crucial to what is conveniently a majority.
we need more democrats or people caucusing with them in office if you want to see more progressive legislation getting passed.
electing more democrats is MUCH easier to do in the swing states. Electing someone more progressive in a Trump +40 state is going to be damn near impossible
Centrists gonna pretend they don’t still love him.
Your point would be correct if you didn’t go around Lemmy labeling everyone as centrists.
Actual centrists love the guy.
A lot of very vocal people on the online left (particularly those around here on Lemmy and twitter) love to scream that they are the true leftist and all others are centrist or worse liberals. (I’m sure you’ve seen people “on the left” calling people they don’t like liberals around here, I see it all the time. They use it in the same breath of calling people fascist.)
It’s stupid as hell and is so prevalent that it seems like an organized effort to make leftist spaces online unfriendly to leftist so that they can’t actually unite on anything.
Liberals are not the same as fascists or conservatives. They are preferable to either.
But not as good as leftists.
Depends on how far left. Three lefts make a right, and I won’t stand for that
Absolutely on point. I actively debate with these knuckleheads to substantiate counterpoint for the more passive users. There’s no changing their minds, but I’m not leaving disinformation unchallenged just to linger and create misinformation through others.
Based take and something I try to do as well but there’s so fuckin many of them out there.
It’s like trying to walk up a raging river at times.
We all need to work together.
Many of those are fascists or authoritarians cosplaying as leftists.
“Everyone to my left is all the way to my right.”
You’re one of the ones who have inconsistent and conflicting viewpoints depending on the topic tho.
Lemmy has a few folks that like to label anyone being pragmatic as a “centrist.”
Anyone that looks at West Virginian’s voting records for federal, state, and local offices knows that Joe Manchin’s seat is almost certainly going Republican in 2024.
I only like Manchin because his existence helps put Chuck Schumer on top of the senate.
I’ve argued for years that while I don’t like Manchin personally, he is far superior to any Republican he has run against.
He votes for the good of the country more often than “centrist” Republicans like john McCain or Lisa Murkowski ever have. He has been a blessing to this country and the world.
I don’t know about “blessing” but he certainly is preferable to Senate Majority Leader McConnell.
I’ll say this, even if he voted against the party 100% of the time, anyone that caucuses with the DNC if a vote toward giving Chuck the gavel. That means no stupid Biden impeachment trials, no brining dumb legislation to the floor that won’t get signed, etc etc.
In 6 months Manchin is likely to be replaced with a GOP candidate who supports Trump’s coup attempt. That was always the alternative to Manchin, not some sort of West Virginian Bernie Sanders.
And no end of people who only punch left but call themselves pragmatists.
If you’ve got a way to ensure that West Virginia’s newly opening seat is filled by someone more progressive than Manchin, we’re all ears. A lot of us would love that.
Right now Governor Jim Justice ®, a coup supporter who just banned abortion for all stages of pregnancy, is polling at 60 to 70% for Manchin’s seat.
I haven’t heard any alternative solutions out of you.
Supporting Manchin isn’t doing the trick either, is it?
Once again, in the spirit of an actual constructive conversation, how would you get someone more progressive into a West Virginia federal senatorial seat?
How would you pull that off in a state where the guy banning abortions is winning by massive margin in the current race?
Why is your arbitrary bullshit goal the one I need to meet before I can level any criticism at your god?
Manchin is leaving the senate because he knows he will lose if he runs again. Moving to the right has failed. Democrats have no one who can win they can run in that state. There’s none to Manchin’s right.
So who would you run for that seat? You can’t run Manchin, he can’t win anymore and even he knows it.
I would work on getting progressives elected in better states. Manchin is wet dogshit on his single best day, and it’s why centrists will always go to bat for him.
Exactly. And I’m just saying that it’s pragmatic to also get less extreme conservatives elected in conservative states while also getting real progressives elected in better states. You do both and take anything that moves the needle toward progress.
Gatekeeping centrism. That’s a new one.
If you stopped using your own perspective to define and belittle others, they’d be more likely to consider your opinions. Just food for thought.
The pragmatist argument for him was that he is probably the most progressive thing you’re going to get out of state that overwhelmingly voted for Trump.
Does he suck? Yes. But when he’s gone, that state is highly likely to vote R when an incumbent isn’t on the ballot. Progressives don’t win a lot of seats in West Virgina. The state senate and house is 90+% republican.
He’s a butt in a chair that allows Dems to have a majority and caucusing with the Dems prevents the GOP from controlling the legislation that is brought to the floor in the Senate. His voting record it’s shit. It’s only about 75% in favor of the most progressive stuff brought to a vote. The other dems vote with the party over 90% of the time.
And now he’s abandoned you, and you’re still defending him.
Literally nothing has changed except for a single noun. He’s still caucusing with the democrats, so the Dems still have 51 / 49 control.
They’d still have control with 50 / 50 + Harris, but the tighter the margin, the harder it gets to move shit forward.
And that said, there’s not even much of a need to push stuff through the Senate in the next 6 months. The politicians are now in campaign mode, not legislative mode.
Manchin can call himself whatever he wants. It doesn’t really matter right now.
We’re back to actually calling it a majority again because Manchin needs defending. Neat.
It’s called a majority because 51 out of 100 is a majority. 50+1 people caucusing for the DNC gives the more progressive party the majority leader’s gavel and control over what comes to the floor.
Manchin’s desk could be filled by gorilla in a top hat, but as long as that gorilla is caucusing with the Dems, then it is a vote for a Democratic majority leader.
You have two options:
Those have been the two options out of West Virgina. That’s it. Gravity is real, the world is round, and West Virginians put super conservative people on the ballot.
Most people that want him in that seat don’t want him for his politics. They want him because of grade school arithmetic.
Hey man, don’t forget to add some butter to that crustacean you’re roasting.
When I criticize Democrats for getting so little of what they promise done, some apologist is quick to insist that the Democrats haven’t had a majority in the senate and that Manchin doesn’t count.
Now that someone’s saying that your god is imperfect, he’s crucial to what is conveniently a majority.
The argument is usually
I’ve had people straight up tell me that Biden never had a Senate majority to work with, right here on lemmy.
Now Democrats magically have the majority their numbers indicate, and it’s all thanks to Manchin.