Sadly the Republican’s “grassroots” orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get none… Without funding I don’t know that there’s much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now I’ve moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I don’t see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.
Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually they’ll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothing… What about when they’ve squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing they’ve been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully it’s before millions die in the streets.
I too walked away from not one but two cushy jobs, to try to become “part of the solution”. There are a lot of us who care, truly & deeply, and as you said willing to FIGHT! Sadly, I quickly discovered that I was a classic bleeding-heart liberal with more compassion than brains. I don’t know about you, but I at least was not a good leader, b/c while I meant well, I was going about things in an extremely naive manner. As most people do ofc, so I am not special in that regard at all. Though it did finally cause me to wake up and realize: the reason that we cannot save the world is that it does not WANT to be saved.
People are too comfortable, but then when things get bad, they don’t suddenly turn their lives around and become everything that they previously were not!? I have heard SO MANY stories of people whose mother, father, sister, brother, and literally all immediate family members plus many slightly beyond that died of covid, but the survivors still went to Trump rallies and hoped that he would save them. “Facts” were never what convinced these people to follow him, so still more facts that ran in contradiction to what they could plainly see with their very own eyes, and had a HUGE effect upon their lives, were not going to convince them to switch.
And now I’ve moved back to a large city environ - where sth like >90% of the people will vote Democrat, so my vote doesn’t count one bit, but despite knowing that, I am prioritizing myself right now, over the planet. Maybe after I pull myself together I will try again, though who wants to live in an area where doctors try their hardest to avoid? Anyway, I’ve lost all faith in democracy - “we” are not smart enough to lead ourselves, and therefore I am not even entirely certain that I am against oligarchy, communism, feudalism, etc. If democracy is to survive, then it needs to… “survive”, if you know what I mean? Like, disinformation is deadly to it, especially with such an uneducated populace as we have, so it either needs to adapt or else it will be discarded - no matter what we wish or hope for to the contrary.
Conservatives have “conviction” behind their beliefs - enough to make what they want come to pass at any rate - and while I am not advocating for conservative belief structures, I am saying that if it is to be opposed, then it must be met with equally strong convictions, on our side. Which especially with the majority population beliving this way, should be relatively “easy”…r-r-right? Except, even with a democratic majority, what got done? Wrt the Supreme Court, or gun control, or anything at all that you could name - what got done during that majority?!? Hence we lack convictions. Hence, unless that changes, we will continue to lose, every time.
Which is why, as you pointed out, there is actually hope on the way. As people continue to get worse off, maybe they’ll wake up? e.g. form unions. There was no hope until they were ready - b/c you can lead a horse to water but cannot force it to drink - but if they get ready then…?
I have no gun. If bad stuff happens, I will simply die. I don’t mind - there are far worse things:-D.
Millions will die. Possibly billions - not in the USA but I mean as a result of climate change, which is moving much faster than hoped. As usual, and like every movie ever, scientists were very gentle with their conservative estimations and only now are we getting higher precision bounds to realize that we aren’t all going to make it.
Oh right, also, millions have died already - more than all wars combined - as a result of the pandemic, though this had to be inferred from the “excess death” statistics since we refused to officially count them, and some states did everything possible to mislead and deflect the numbers (even the “liberal” NYC iirc due to the senior home incidents). As Trump proved over & over again, he was for rioting in the streets, but I have to hand it to Biden, b/c whether for good or ill in the long-run, he did manage to calm things down considerably, in offering hope (false? we’ll see I suppose).
Unfortunately the only real convictions the Dems seem to have is “protect the rich at all costs”… They have some social issues stuff quite a ways behind that, but clearly they’re willing to let it slide rather than fight (ie roe v Wade)… They would definitely rather lose to Republicans, who at least have that same ‘protect the rich’ conviction, than lose to progressives who would “eat” the rich instead… Even though they agree with progressives on the social issues
We’ve been dancing around it but I want to say explicitly: politicians are not “the same” as the people that they represent.
Conservatives for instance vote against and by and large act as if they believe that climate change is not happening, however Republican politicians - at the high end, i.e. federal even if not all the way down to every local area - know that it is happening, and it is merely a farce when they say that it is not. “Climate change is not happening” is their way of saying “well of course it’s happening, but we choose to protect ThE eCoNoMy first and foremost”.
Note that it is no accident that old retirees subsist nowadays on the tiny trickle from the stock market that keeps them going - so you can’t regulate the stock market b/c “won’t someone think of the old folks - what will happen to them!?”, despite how they may get a fraction of 1% while billion- and now trillionaires take the rest. It’s like the rich use the elderly as a necromancer uses zombies - in a manner called “meat shield” in gaming terminology; but it happens irl too, e.g. Hamas hid behind school-children in an identical fashion. Anyway, in return, the elderly vote to keep tHe EcOnoMy first and foremost in their minds, thus sacrificing their children to become slaves, while taking care of themselves first & foremost.
And in like manner, Democrats != liberals, with a few notable exceptions like Bernie Sanders and AOC, who ofc will never be allowed to become President or gain positions of real authority and power over the ones who hold true power.
The principle itself is not even a bad thing necessarily - ideally, leaders should be MORE responsible than the average citizen that they represent, not less. But since we have so many people working from behind the scenes manipulating things unseen, politicians are not our “leaders” these days, not truly, and instead have made themselves useful puppets that dance at the behest of their masters. Btw, this happens in literally every group that has ever existed, not even limited to human social ones, e.g. it happens in single-celled bacteria and even single-molecule proteins called prions such as those that cause mad cow disease, and probably photons (bundles of pure energy that don’t even have subatomic particles and thus have zero mass) do it too I dunno, I’m just saying that it’s a natural law of the universe, at all scales.
An extremely insightful video that I cannot recommend highly enough is the CGP Grey Rules for Rulers - that channel has excellent other resources too like a fantastic explanation of ranked-choice voting. Ngl, that video messed me up - I used to really want to change things, then I watched it and realize how difficult that task is to make happen. Now I am much less outspoken than I used to be, b/c I have sent myself back to school, while questioning everything that I once believed. We cannot fight the very laws of the UNIVERSE!! Which doesn’t mean that liberalism has no chance, but it does significantly narrow the scope of solutions that might actually be viable enough to work.
Which is what gives me pause to lash out with instant hate against Biden’s efforts to improve things. Maybe he’s worthy of that, or maybe not, but I would need to understand what he’s doing first, before I want to judge him. I spent years breaking down Trump’s motivations btw, so I get what he’s trying to do, but I have not done that for Biden. It’s exhausting:-(. I wish there were people I could trust that I could just follow, but who would that be - Bernie Sanders? He is an idealist, and while that works for his seat from Maine, it would not work on the global scale, with him as the Commander in Chief. As Obama said about him, he is a prophet in the wilderness, not a king who can make the hard choices.
Anyway the forces involved are just so incredibly complex - what has worked since American’s founding seems unlikely to work in the future, as the implications of globalization and automation settle in. e.g. the likes of Jeff Bezos and the Military-Industrial Complex use the American government in both an offensive capacity to increase their own profits abroad, while simultaneously as an aforementioned meat-shield to hide behind it whenever they feel scared that some other trillionaire such as Putin might come for their wealth. And keep in mind, We The People were okay with that, b/c it helped us too to have things like Google, Amazon, and weapons that we could use to defend ourselves & our allies, and offensively destroy our enemies or threaten them to not attacking in the first place, or regardless of military entirely we could also bully them in economic matters. Just like how people in Florida are okay with their leaders antics b/c it works for them, so too the American people are okay with the antics of our own leaders - or at least we were until about the late 70s. And now, we talk as if we are not okay with them, but we act as if we are, more or less.
So Rules for Rulers - check it out, and I hope that it messes you up as much as it did me, b/c that’s how you know it is working:-D. As for where to go forward from here… I don’t know, but even so I consider my new position to be a lot better than my previous one where I thought I knew but didn’t. To be clear, that is not me even attempting to hint at implying that liberalism is incorrect, but rather me saying that if we can’t make it happen in the real world, then of what use is it to be “correct”? Before we can move forward, we need to find a viable path first. Like standing at the foot of the Rocky Mountains, wanting to go westward - it’s not impossible, but it is going to be rough going, and we might not all make it, and either way we need to be prepared for whatever lies ahead.
So typically liberal=neo-liberal=establishment Dems… Progressives=Bernie and the squad… Just semantics
I’ve seen that video before… Love everything he does… I wonder how AI and robots taking over all human labor over the next 20 years will effect this model. I guess it’s sort of like discovering a resource that dwarfs the production capabilities of the people. So all the democracies slip into dictatorships? Maybe that’s what we’re seeing the prelude to?
I tend to avoid the word “progressive”, b/c - I kid you not - George W. Bush was one.
Progressivism is a political philosophy and movement that seeks to advance the human condition through social reform – primarily based on purported advancements in social organization, science, and technology.
Like, maybe someone doesn’t have to be “good” at it in order to be called one? Also, Biden did one of the largest infrastructure bills that we’ve seen in modern times - would that make him quality? (perhaps not a “social progressive” but a different kind?) I admit, I am very likely over-thinking this and should just use the word:-P.
But anyway, yeah, HRC was pro-war, pro-big business, the rather extensive list goes on, so a perfect example of a Democrat who was decidedly not progressive. And you get what I am saying underneath it all: what the politicians offer does not always perfectly match the desires of their constituents - e.g. neoliberalism.
Yeah, the likes of Bezos have been harping on replacing their human workforce for years, they actually feel like technology is BEHIND in that aspect, b/c they wish they could ditch the meat-bags ASAP (who do things like die when the temperature rises above a certain threshold for a sustained length of time). So while governments with octogenarians don’t even know it is happening, corporations look like they are preparing 3rd-world nations to receive their robot factories. Just like farming today, if all you need is 1-5 humans per huge production location, and especially if you can pay that person in housing & maybe food (“company scrip”), then by ensuring their loyalty in said manner you can maintain absolute control over your profits. Evolution can sometimes be about survival of the most ruthless? Especially when people refuse to work together to stop it.:-(
I guess I don’t see how Bush fits that definition, but I guess it doesn’t matter, I think we’re close enough.
Personally, I wish we could hurry up and replace all human labor with computers and machines. People could still do work, they’ll just be free to pursue work that they find satisfying instead of the bullshit work most people are doing now. We will of course have to have an economic revolution and force the rich to share the wealth created by the machines, otherwise everyone dies in the streets except a few thousand rich people. I’m a strong proponent of UBI tied to inflation and set at a thriving level by “district”… However we want to define district.
otherwise everyone dies in the streets except a few thousand rich people
Which is probably why the revolution would be allowed in the first place. They have their own islands or stay perpetually in the air - they can afford to wait it out.
Yeah…I think they’ll push for a faux revolution, designed to cull the herd more than actually change power structures… Our only hope is for people to realize they need to fight the rich and not each other… So I don’t have high hopes
I appreciate your thoughtful response.
Sadly the Republican’s “grassroots” orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get none… Without funding I don’t know that there’s much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now I’ve moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I don’t see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.
Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually they’ll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothing… What about when they’ve squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing they’ve been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully it’s before millions die in the streets.
I too walked away from not one but two cushy jobs, to try to become “part of the solution”. There are a lot of us who care, truly & deeply, and as you said willing to FIGHT! Sadly, I quickly discovered that I was a classic bleeding-heart liberal with more compassion than brains. I don’t know about you, but I at least was not a good leader, b/c while I meant well, I was going about things in an extremely naive manner. As most people do ofc, so I am not special in that regard at all. Though it did finally cause me to wake up and realize: the reason that we cannot save the world is that it does not WANT to be saved.
People are too comfortable, but then when things get bad, they don’t suddenly turn their lives around and become everything that they previously were not!? I have heard SO MANY stories of people whose mother, father, sister, brother, and literally all immediate family members plus many slightly beyond that died of covid, but the survivors still went to Trump rallies and hoped that he would save them. “Facts” were never what convinced these people to follow him, so still more facts that ran in contradiction to what they could plainly see with their very own eyes, and had a HUGE effect upon their lives, were not going to convince them to switch.
And now I’ve moved back to a large city environ - where sth like >90% of the people will vote Democrat, so my vote doesn’t count one bit, but despite knowing that, I am prioritizing myself right now, over the planet. Maybe after I pull myself together I will try again, though who wants to live in an area where doctors try their hardest to avoid? Anyway, I’ve lost all faith in democracy - “we” are not smart enough to lead ourselves, and therefore I am not even entirely certain that I am against oligarchy, communism, feudalism, etc. If democracy is to survive, then it needs to… “survive”, if you know what I mean? Like, disinformation is deadly to it, especially with such an uneducated populace as we have, so it either needs to adapt or else it will be discarded - no matter what we wish or hope for to the contrary.
Conservatives have “conviction” behind their beliefs - enough to make what they want come to pass at any rate - and while I am not advocating for conservative belief structures, I am saying that if it is to be opposed, then it must be met with equally strong convictions, on our side. Which especially with the majority population beliving this way, should be relatively “easy”…r-r-right? Except, even with a democratic majority, what got done? Wrt the Supreme Court, or gun control, or anything at all that you could name - what got done during that majority?!? Hence we lack convictions. Hence, unless that changes, we will continue to lose, every time.
Which is why, as you pointed out, there is actually hope on the way. As people continue to get worse off, maybe they’ll wake up? e.g. form unions. There was no hope until they were ready - b/c you can lead a horse to water but cannot force it to drink - but if they get ready then…?
I have no gun. If bad stuff happens, I will simply die. I don’t mind - there are far worse things:-D.
Millions will die. Possibly billions - not in the USA but I mean as a result of climate change, which is moving much faster than hoped. As usual, and like every movie ever, scientists were very gentle with their conservative estimations and only now are we getting higher precision bounds to realize that we aren’t all going to make it.
Oh right, also, millions have died already - more than all wars combined - as a result of the pandemic, though this had to be inferred from the “excess death” statistics since we refused to officially count them, and some states did everything possible to mislead and deflect the numbers (even the “liberal” NYC iirc due to the senior home incidents). As Trump proved over & over again, he was for rioting in the streets, but I have to hand it to Biden, b/c whether for good or ill in the long-run, he did manage to calm things down considerably, in offering hope (false? we’ll see I suppose).
Unfortunately the only real convictions the Dems seem to have is “protect the rich at all costs”… They have some social issues stuff quite a ways behind that, but clearly they’re willing to let it slide rather than fight (ie roe v Wade)… They would definitely rather lose to Republicans, who at least have that same ‘protect the rich’ conviction, than lose to progressives who would “eat” the rich instead… Even though they agree with progressives on the social issues
We’ve been dancing around it but I want to say explicitly: politicians are not “the same” as the people that they represent.
Conservatives for instance vote against and by and large act as if they believe that climate change is not happening, however Republican politicians - at the high end, i.e. federal even if not all the way down to every local area - know that it is happening, and it is merely a farce when they say that it is not. “Climate change is not happening” is their way of saying “well of course it’s happening, but we choose to protect ThE eCoNoMy first and foremost”.
Note that it is no accident that old retirees subsist nowadays on the tiny trickle from the stock market that keeps them going - so you can’t regulate the stock market b/c “won’t someone think of the old folks - what will happen to them!?”, despite how they may get a fraction of 1% while billion- and now trillionaires take the rest. It’s like the rich use the elderly as a necromancer uses zombies - in a manner called “meat shield” in gaming terminology; but it happens irl too, e.g. Hamas hid behind school-children in an identical fashion. Anyway, in return, the elderly vote to keep tHe EcOnoMy first and foremost in their minds, thus sacrificing their children to become slaves, while taking care of themselves first & foremost.
And in like manner, Democrats != liberals, with a few notable exceptions like Bernie Sanders and AOC, who ofc will never be allowed to become President or gain positions of real authority and power over the ones who hold true power.
The principle itself is not even a bad thing necessarily - ideally, leaders should be MORE responsible than the average citizen that they represent, not less. But since we have so many people working from behind the scenes manipulating things unseen, politicians are not our “leaders” these days, not truly, and instead have made themselves useful puppets that dance at the behest of their masters. Btw, this happens in literally every group that has ever existed, not even limited to human social ones, e.g. it happens in single-celled bacteria and even single-molecule proteins called prions such as those that cause mad cow disease, and probably photons (bundles of pure energy that don’t even have subatomic particles and thus have zero mass) do it too I dunno, I’m just saying that it’s a natural law of the universe, at all scales.
An extremely insightful video that I cannot recommend highly enough is the CGP Grey Rules for Rulers - that channel has excellent other resources too like a fantastic explanation of ranked-choice voting. Ngl, that video messed me up - I used to really want to change things, then I watched it and realize how difficult that task is to make happen. Now I am much less outspoken than I used to be, b/c I have sent myself back to school, while questioning everything that I once believed. We cannot fight the very laws of the UNIVERSE!! Which doesn’t mean that liberalism has no chance, but it does significantly narrow the scope of solutions that might actually be viable enough to work.
Which is what gives me pause to lash out with instant hate against Biden’s efforts to improve things. Maybe he’s worthy of that, or maybe not, but I would need to understand what he’s doing first, before I want to judge him. I spent years breaking down Trump’s motivations btw, so I get what he’s trying to do, but I have not done that for Biden. It’s exhausting:-(. I wish there were people I could trust that I could just follow, but who would that be - Bernie Sanders? He is an idealist, and while that works for his seat from Maine, it would not work on the global scale, with him as the Commander in Chief. As Obama said about him, he is a prophet in the wilderness, not a king who can make the hard choices.
Anyway the forces involved are just so incredibly complex - what has worked since American’s founding seems unlikely to work in the future, as the implications of globalization and automation settle in. e.g. the likes of Jeff Bezos and the Military-Industrial Complex use the American government in both an offensive capacity to increase their own profits abroad, while simultaneously as an aforementioned meat-shield to hide behind it whenever they feel scared that some other trillionaire such as Putin might come for their wealth. And keep in mind, We The People were okay with that, b/c it helped us too to have things like Google, Amazon, and weapons that we could use to defend ourselves & our allies, and offensively destroy our enemies or threaten them to not attacking in the first place, or regardless of military entirely we could also bully them in economic matters. Just like how people in Florida are okay with their leaders antics b/c it works for them, so too the American people are okay with the antics of our own leaders - or at least we were until about the late 70s. And now, we talk as if we are not okay with them, but we act as if we are, more or less.
So Rules for Rulers - check it out, and I hope that it messes you up as much as it did me, b/c that’s how you know it is working:-D. As for where to go forward from here… I don’t know, but even so I consider my new position to be a lot better than my previous one where I thought I knew but didn’t. To be clear, that is not me even attempting to hint at implying that liberalism is incorrect, but rather me saying that if we can’t make it happen in the real world, then of what use is it to be “correct”? Before we can move forward, we need to find a viable path first. Like standing at the foot of the Rocky Mountains, wanting to go westward - it’s not impossible, but it is going to be rough going, and we might not all make it, and either way we need to be prepared for whatever lies ahead.
So typically liberal=neo-liberal=establishment Dems… Progressives=Bernie and the squad… Just semantics
I’ve seen that video before… Love everything he does… I wonder how AI and robots taking over all human labor over the next 20 years will effect this model. I guess it’s sort of like discovering a resource that dwarfs the production capabilities of the people. So all the democracies slip into dictatorships? Maybe that’s what we’re seeing the prelude to?
I tend to avoid the word “progressive”, b/c - I kid you not - George W. Bush was one.
Like, maybe someone doesn’t have to be “good” at it in order to be called one? Also, Biden did one of the largest infrastructure bills that we’ve seen in modern times - would that make him quality? (perhaps not a “social progressive” but a different kind?) I admit, I am very likely over-thinking this and should just use the word:-P.
But anyway, yeah, HRC was pro-war, pro-big business, the rather extensive list goes on, so a perfect example of a Democrat who was decidedly not progressive. And you get what I am saying underneath it all: what the politicians offer does not always perfectly match the desires of their constituents - e.g. neoliberalism.
Literally all across the globe!
Yeah, the likes of Bezos have been harping on replacing their human workforce for years, they actually feel like technology is BEHIND in that aspect, b/c they wish they could ditch the meat-bags ASAP (who do things like die when the temperature rises above a certain threshold for a sustained length of time). So while governments with octogenarians don’t even know it is happening, corporations look like they are preparing 3rd-world nations to receive their robot factories. Just like farming today, if all you need is 1-5 humans per huge production location, and especially if you can pay that person in housing & maybe food (“company scrip”), then by ensuring their loyalty in said manner you can maintain absolute control over your profits. Evolution can sometimes be about survival of the most ruthless? Especially when people refuse to work together to stop it.:-(
I guess I don’t see how Bush fits that definition, but I guess it doesn’t matter, I think we’re close enough.
Personally, I wish we could hurry up and replace all human labor with computers and machines. People could still do work, they’ll just be free to pursue work that they find satisfying instead of the bullshit work most people are doing now. We will of course have to have an economic revolution and force the rich to share the wealth created by the machines, otherwise everyone dies in the streets except a few thousand rich people. I’m a strong proponent of UBI tied to inflation and set at a thriving level by “district”… However we want to define district.
Which is probably why the revolution would be allowed in the first place. They have their own islands or stay perpetually in the air - they can afford to wait it out.
Yeah…I think they’ll push for a faux revolution, designed to cull the herd more than actually change power structures… Our only hope is for people to realize they need to fight the rich and not each other… So I don’t have high hopes