NixOS is electing a committee that will elect the new governing body and design its systems.

One popular proposal is for this committee to consist of five people, of which two are intersectionally marginalized. (That is, marginalized in at least two ways) That is, of course, a quota.

Aaron Hall, who objects to all of this, has arrived.

I value fairness and treating everyone equally regardless of their class status. I would be wary of any statements that make some users feel they will be treated less preferentially to others due to their class status, sowing distrust and conflict.

…

It’s a meta comment about distrust and conflict. There has been several comments made on this thread about privileging some people over others. We’re on the internet. Nobody knows who is what class. I suggest we not make those kinds of comments because they are controversial and will lead to arguments and distrust in the broader community if users think they will be treated unfairly because their class is being unprivileged.

…

I know everyone looks at statements that privilege some over others and thinks they are sketchy. (In what way are they privileged? How does that work? Does that mean we get suboptimal decision making so that some class-privileged person can have a seat of responsibility and privilege?)

Nix is very cutting edge, and we’d like to see more diversity. Diversity will come with growth. Controversy will stifle growth. These kinds of statements are going to cause controversy and conflict, stifling the growth that will result in diversity. Instead you may be able to rope in tokens of diversity, but you won’t actually achieve real organic diversity because the growth just isn’t there.

…

Can you explain what did you put in place to obtain that diversity, can you qualify a bit that diversity? I’m looking at statements like “There was BIPOC”, etc. Also, how did you measure that diversity?

We grew. We advertised on Meetup.com. We let companies know we existed so they could host us. We let colleges know we existed so students could find us. We were open to everyone. We made every effort to help everyone who was trying to help themselves.

One of the things we did that helped: We treated people fairly. We did not talk about elevating anyone with privilege over others because of their class.

Who? Black (native, island, African), White (European, Russian, native (all ethnicities)), Asian (Korean, Chinese), Islanders, Native American, Transgendered, very old, very young. etc.

I’m highlighting this because it’s a reoccurrence of the discussion Jon Ringer kept having in apparent bad faith.

  • pyrex@awful.systemsOP
    5·
    7 months ago

    New developments – someone proposes “OK, what if we’re in irreconcilable difference with the racists?” and two people pile on to say (respectively) “Well, we’ll have to find (vaguely specified) ‘workarounds’” and “Well, we can’t kick them out, that would be a disaster.”

    A third person points out that some of the people in the thread are opposed to quotas but implied they would support quotas if we made an applicant list first (and allowed for the possibility that only white men would appear on the list, rendering the quota system moot) – so we should do that.

    Specifically – nat418 sez:

    I believe that we live in a society in which some classes of people are exploited by others, and that the acknowledgement of this reality—let alone measures to remediate it—are often percieved as “unfair” or “conflictual” by members of the exploiting classes. I think the real conflict is already ongoing, we are enmeshed within it, and that if we want to live as honorable and dignfied persons we must take up the cause of justice and the common good.

    nim65s:

    I personally agree with @nat-418 here, but I acknowledge some others do not, and I don’t think one side could convince the other. I also don’t think we can compromise: this is a boolean question. Therefore, to find a consensus, I think we should explore workarounds.

    nat418 sez:

    What workarounds? Seems like if we can’t agree on basic matters like “marginalized groups should be represented” then we should simply part ways.

    tmarkov:

    This is a very non-obvious statement.

    The goal of the mix community is ultimately to make nix and NisOS as good as possible.

    Parting ways is a huge negative for the ecosystem overall. If it is unavoidable, I guess I’ll personally leave all other consideration aside and advocate for whatever would cause the least amount of people splitting off whatever it might be.

    Colin:

    i’m not confident that’s pinpointing a hard disagreement. my read of this thread is:

    1. marginalized individuals should be represented.
    2. representation is better maximized by composing a diverse assembly from available applicants, rather than within the process by which we obtain applicants.
    3. uncertainty around how “hard” this requirement is; how critical is representation within assembly composition to ensuring representation in its downstream processes; hypotheticals in what to do if there aren’t enough applicants with which to form a diverse assembly.