Biden’s numbers among young voters have slid during his presidency from the high margins that helped him beat Trump. Several former supporters explain why.
It’s a rational decision. Voting against Biden (and discouraging people about Biden online constantly) helps get Trump elected, which means you’re voting for 2 genocides since Trump is clearly planning to greatly harm Central and Southern Americans in the US.
Trump is clearly planning to greatly harm Central and Southern Americans in the US
And Palestinians (he was the one that moved the embassy to Jerusalem, remember)
And US journalists who report on corruption in Saudi Arabia
And Ukrainians
And anyone in government who won’t support his crimes
And ordinary-person election workers who won’t support his crimes
And via his supporters, literally anyone in or out of government who actively opposes his crimes, with a pretty broad definition of “opposes”
And women who have medical problems during a pregnancy
And I’m sure lots of other people who don’t spring to mind right at the moment. But surely that should be enough of a list. 2 Gaza-size genocides as the final outcome of a second Trump term would mean we got very very lucky.
Yes, I do understand your argument. You don’t need to repeat it. I’m saying that advancing that argument is actively hostile to your own individual safety.
I know two separate people whose life situations changed dramatically because of Obama-era immigration policies. If they were hostile to Obama because of drone strikes and warrantless wiretapping, I’d point out to them that yes, fair enough, but they could also be deported right now from a Bush or Romney America if things had gone a little differently. And Trump is much, much worse than Bush or Romney. He’s dangerous to people who aren’t even queer or communist.
I think you’re being similarly foolish and contrarian about it. But of course you’re free to think whatever you want, I won’t keep going back and forth with you about it.
Are you under the impression that Trump doesn’t support this type of genocide in a much bigger way than Biden? Or that it’s uncertain whether life will be better for you under Biden than under a second Trump term? If so, I think we’ve hit the root of our disagreement.
Trump already ran concentration camps within the United States during his first term, and he’s already pledged to root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.
That’s you. He means you. And he’s literally dead serious about it, and he and his cohort have a detailed plan for how to get it done. I’m not by any means saying that you should vote for Biden only for your own safety as some sort of selfish gesture and betray all these people who would somehow be safer under Trump. I’m saying that not voting for Biden endangers quite a lot of people’s safety, inside and outside the US, but yes, also very specifically yours.
Yup. Do you think I’m selfish enough to vote for genocide just because Biden’s genocide doesn’t target people like me?
I will not vote for genocide. This is not some radical stance, it’s the bare fucking minimum. And you know what? My hope is, by pressuring Biden’s campaign on this issue, Biden could reconsider his stance on Gaza to get reelected. That’s how politics works!
And if he refuses to reconsider, even at the cost of his own reelection, then I have zero confidence he’d protect me in his next four years anyway. Why should he? When my state starts rounding up people on HRT into conversion therapy concentration camps, Biden can do literally nothing about it and you’ll still vote for his successor anyway because she’s the lesser evil.
Yes, and Biden is still running those concentration camps!
Do you think I’m selfish enough to vote for genocide just because Biden’s genocide doesn’t target people like me?
I think you’re being incredibly selfish. I was friends with a guy who, if the timing had been different, could have literally been one of those kids in cages on the southern border. In addition to support for all kinds of anti-Islamic, anti-queer, and anti-immigrant policies which produced real harm in the real world, Trump started the family separation policy. Biden ended it, and on February 2nd 2021 he created a task force to try to find children who’d been separated from their parents and reunite them. Are you really trying to say that because ICE is still operating and still runs detention centers, “nothing fundamentally changed”?
I will not vote for genocide. This is not some radical stance, it’s the bare fucking minimum. And you know what? My hope is, by pressuring Biden’s campaign on this issue, Biden could reconsider his stance on Gaza to get reelected. That’s how politics works!
Yeah, I get this. I’m not trying to say that Biden should get a free pass on anything he wants to do. I’m saying there’s a concerted propaganda effort afoot at the moment to try to come up with reasons for people not to vote for Biden, when Trump is the end of the fuckin’ world. It’s like if your house is burning down and you’re running around trying to save the artwork instead of the children.
Are you genuinely trying to work for justice with all these things you’re saying? Or just making a theatrical stand for the people in Gaza who’ve been dying by the thousands all through the Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations, while nothing fundamentally changed? (edit: … while ignoring the cost side of the equation of what you’re saying, in the real world, for every single other marginalized or vulnerable person who isn’t in Gaza?)
I’m saying that advancing that argument is actively hostile to your own individual safety.
And your argument seems to be that you shouldn’t participate unless at least one truly perfect candidate is available. But not participating means that the worse of the two evils wins. So you’re, unironically, hostile to your own individual safety.
Biden is supporting genocide! No matter who I vote for, Hitler wins.
This isn’t fascism vs social democracy. This is Hitler Lite vs Hitler Delux.
Such a clueless take when Trump is calling for genocide IN THE US.
I will not vote for the lesser of two genocides.
You sound like someone who is hungry but won’t take my food because they want better food.
More accurately, someone who doesn’t want other hungry people (in addition to herself) to have any food because she wants better food.
I like that, the double whammy of selfishness.
Why the fuck not?
When you vote for the lesser of two genocides, you are voting for genocide. You can’t escape that.
It’s a rational decision. Voting against Biden (and discouraging people about Biden online constantly) helps get Trump elected, which means you’re voting for 2 genocides since Trump is clearly planning to greatly harm Central and Southern Americans in the US.
And Palestinians (he was the one that moved the embassy to Jerusalem, remember)
And US journalists who report on corruption in Saudi Arabia
And Ukrainians
And anyone in government who won’t support his crimes
And ordinary-person election workers who won’t support his crimes
And via his supporters, literally anyone in or out of government who actively opposes his crimes, with a pretty broad definition of “opposes”
And women who have medical problems during a pregnancy
And I’m sure lots of other people who don’t spring to mind right at the moment. But surely that should be enough of a list. 2 Gaza-size genocides as the final outcome of a second Trump term would mean we got very very lucky.
Good point, Trump taking office would also mean destruction for Ukraine. And of course he has broadly threatened millions of American citizens too.
Yes, I do understand your argument. You don’t need to repeat it. I’m saying that advancing that argument is actively hostile to your own individual safety.
I know two separate people whose life situations changed dramatically because of Obama-era immigration policies. If they were hostile to Obama because of drone strikes and warrantless wiretapping, I’d point out to them that yes, fair enough, but they could also be deported right now from a Bush or Romney America if things had gone a little differently. And Trump is much, much worse than Bush or Romney. He’s dangerous to people who aren’t even queer or communist.
I think you’re being similarly foolish and contrarian about it. But of course you’re free to think whatever you want, I won’t keep going back and forth with you about it.
Liberals: “You need to vote for Biden or Trump will kill all the gay communists”
Gay communists: “Don’t vote for genocide Joe, it’s the minimum I expect of you”
Liberals: “I don’t care. If Biden loses I’m not going to be able to go back to brunch”
I won’t vote for genocide just to protect myself.
At some point you have to find something that you value more than your own individual safety.
Ah yes, all those people who will be safer under a Trump presidency. I forgot about them. How careless of me.
The genocide in Gaza is going to continue regardless of which candidate wins. I understand that.
But if I vote for Biden, I am voting for genocide. I won’t do that just because it might be personally better for me if Biden wins.
(might be personally better for me - who fucking knows what the Supreme Court might decide in the next 4 years)
Are you under the impression that Trump doesn’t support this type of genocide in a much bigger way than Biden? Or that it’s uncertain whether life will be better for you under Biden than under a second Trump term? If so, I think we’ve hit the root of our disagreement.
Trump already ran concentration camps within the United States during his first term, and he’s already pledged to root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.
That’s you. He means you. And he’s literally dead serious about it, and he and his cohort have a detailed plan for how to get it done. I’m not by any means saying that you should vote for Biden only for your own safety as some sort of selfish gesture and betray all these people who would somehow be safer under Trump. I’m saying that not voting for Biden endangers quite a lot of people’s safety, inside and outside the US, but yes, also very specifically yours.
Yes, and Biden is still running those concentration camps! The number of immigrants jailed by ICE has increased 70 percent since the start of the Biden administration. Nothing fundamentally changed, just like he promised.
Yup. Do you think I’m selfish enough to vote for genocide just because Biden’s genocide doesn’t target people like me?
I will not vote for genocide. This is not some radical stance, it’s the bare fucking minimum. And you know what? My hope is, by pressuring Biden’s campaign on this issue, Biden could reconsider his stance on Gaza to get reelected. That’s how politics works!
And if he refuses to reconsider, even at the cost of his own reelection, then I have zero confidence he’d protect me in his next four years anyway. Why should he? When my state starts rounding up people on HRT into conversion therapy concentration camps, Biden can do literally nothing about it and you’ll still vote for his successor anyway because she’s the lesser evil.
I think you’re being incredibly selfish. I was friends with a guy who, if the timing had been different, could have literally been one of those kids in cages on the southern border. In addition to support for all kinds of anti-Islamic, anti-queer, and anti-immigrant policies which produced real harm in the real world, Trump started the family separation policy. Biden ended it, and on February 2nd 2021 he created a task force to try to find children who’d been separated from their parents and reunite them. Are you really trying to say that because ICE is still operating and still runs detention centers, “nothing fundamentally changed”?
Yeah, I get this. I’m not trying to say that Biden should get a free pass on anything he wants to do. I’m saying there’s a concerted propaganda effort afoot at the moment to try to come up with reasons for people not to vote for Biden, when Trump is the end of the fuckin’ world. It’s like if your house is burning down and you’re running around trying to save the artwork instead of the children.
Are you genuinely trying to work for justice with all these things you’re saying? Or just making a theatrical stand for the people in Gaza who’ve been dying by the thousands all through the Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations, while nothing fundamentally changed? (edit: … while ignoring the cost side of the equation of what you’re saying, in the real world, for every single other marginalized or vulnerable person who isn’t in Gaza?)
Plus Trump has been threatening (promising, from the POV of his fascist supporters) even worse action against immigrants for a while now.
And your argument seems to be that you shouldn’t participate unless at least one truly perfect candidate is available. But not participating means that the worse of the two evils wins. So you’re, unironically, hostile to your own individual safety.
Nope, my argument is the reverse of that. I’m saying we should vote for Biden if the only other possible outcome is Trump.