As a European, I would make 3-4x in my job if I was American. Of course somethings would be more expensive (education, healthcare, housing). Personally I would be better in states. I would still not want my county to change to states, because that inequality is not good for the whole country.
middle-upper middle class in America = rich in Europe.
I took a 50% pay cut to move to Europe. I’ll probably move back.
Edit: the €200 uninsured hospital visit when I got here before my public insurance activated Was nice though. Actually finding a doctor here who can see me on a time scale not measured in Quarters is a problem though. Also drug availability for my issues is real as the public insurance doesn’t offer a lot of them. It’s still marginally better than the US and a lot cheaper but fuck me I need my medication or to see the doctor more than 3-4 times a year for them to adjust it.
Oh also the lack of AC given climate change is a huge problem. The BS about better insulation is just that. You end up roasting in an oven. The insulation and construction methods are also impossible to do modifications to without a lot of time and specialized equipment. A contractor I hired burned out their impact driver just hanging artwork. The toilets suck too and are embedded in the wall so good luck servicing them.
Low end of Middle class, 50%, is still making a good college degreed salary (masters equivalent) in Europe. Middle end is making as much as a PhD in a tech company equivalent here.
So 1 in 2 have 6 years of college equivalent income and are making more than most Europeans, and 1 in 10 are comparably rich.
Comparably a good PhD (I. E. Employable) in America can pull 120-150k relatively easily, and 200k after a few years. Making as much as 3 times the European with the same education and experience.
E: European college costs are much lower though so it somewhat depends on how much debt you have to take too.
You’re reading that article completely wrong…the numbers you posted are medians for upper income earners. The median US worker does not have 6 years of higher ed. I think only 20-30% even have a bachelor’s.
The median income in the US is 50k as of 2022. The 90th percentile is 120k-130k.
Those are disgustingly low for not having universal health or any social safety net like the rest of the industrialized world.
50k is more than most Europeans make with 3-6 years of education… That’s my point.
It is low, but the take home in Europe is even lower like 25-30k, 60k before taxes with years of education, and you’re still paying €300 each month for public health insurance which takes up 5-10% of your income.
Some of my coworkers with PHDs and post docs and 5-10 years are only pulling 90k before taxes. An electric bike for example still costs €3-4k, and they have to pay for registration and insurance on it.
I had to wait 2.5 months for a simple blood test panel after seeing my doctor which took 2 months from scheduling.
In the US it was always same day at a Lab Corp outlet or on site. Cost a lot but I’d get results into the issue at least. The hospital here in Europe did a whole panel the same day I went to the ER…but my doctor didn’t want to bother getting it from them. And imaged me twice too, but again the doctor didn’t bother pulling those and ordered some months away.
Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, and Greece on the construction methods, AC, and Toliet. Haven’t been to Spain in a few years but they are suffering in the heatwave. Italy was 80+F late night last night when I was in Rome.
Healthcare wise my home region has some of the best on the continent. Perks of being the HQ of a national champion of the largest economy on the continent. If I have an emergency the hospital is very well equipped to handle patients from the nearby plants. Was more modern than any hospital I ever saw in the US.
I’ll see France in the next few months along with the Netherlands and Belgium. I’m not expecting things to be much different.
The Baltic and Nordic countries still have a mostly cold climate, so maybe things are better there, I’ll visit. In my neck of the woods it just never stops raining which has been a mixed bag.
If we want to compare incomes outside of my area than it’s even more extremely in favor of the US. I was basing my comparison on my employer’s payscales along with IG Metall (largest Union in Germany). We have some of the highest pays on the continent.
The literal only exceptions cost of living wise are cities like Munich which are comparable to NYC, LA, and SF but still cheaper from the time I’ve spent visiting it. I lived in all three of the aforementioned American cities for years.
Money buys quality of life and access to distractions thay may or may not make you happy.
My companies’ Pension plan for retirement is one of the best ones left and still pays comparably dog shit to an IRA and 401k. It’s irrelevant to me because I’m here to do work that makes me happy.
I certainly enjoy eating at the fanciest restaurant in the area every week because it’s what I used to pay for dog shit delivery in SF.
I can travel whenever I want, etc.
The only thing I’m unhappy about is not being in the same timezone as most of my friends.
Edit : like shit, my Mexican intern is struggling with his visa and might need a €10k loan from me to stay in Europe and it’s nice I can actually give him that. It’s untenable for the rest of the native European people on my team to even entertain such a thing, that was 1 month salary for me years ago in LA.
Sure, but Europe is not exactly poor (well some countries are).
More money is nice, but I prefer life here.
And most of western Europe and especially northern Europe where I live outranks north America in pretty much every index and statistic I care about.
Canada seems pretty alright though. You do have the same stupid city planning that the USA does, which is a shame.
I don’t think that’s true at all. Your middle class percentage is tiny compared to most of Europe, and while you also earn a bit more, that money goes to a much stronger social safety net in most of Europe, too (at least in our more successful countries).
I would also wager that middle class workers are more comfortable here, because of guaranteed 5-7 weeks holiday, 37 hour work weeks (for the vast majority), guaranteed parental leave, and just generally a very unionized job market.
As a European, I would make 3-4x in my job if I was American. Of course somethings would be more expensive (education, healthcare, housing). Personally I would be better in states. I would still not want my county to change to states, because that inequality is not good for the whole country.
For the average person, America is much better than most places in Europe.
For people who aren’t doing as well, though, it’s much worse.
I think you’re vastly overestimating how well-off “average” is in the US.
middle-upper middle class in America = rich in Europe.
I took a 50% pay cut to move to Europe. I’ll probably move back.
Edit: the €200 uninsured hospital visit when I got here before my public insurance activated Was nice though. Actually finding a doctor here who can see me on a time scale not measured in Quarters is a problem though. Also drug availability for my issues is real as the public insurance doesn’t offer a lot of them. It’s still marginally better than the US and a lot cheaper but fuck me I need my medication or to see the doctor more than 3-4 times a year for them to adjust it.
Oh also the lack of AC given climate change is a huge problem. The BS about better insulation is just that. You end up roasting in an oven. The insulation and construction methods are also impossible to do modifications to without a lot of time and specialized equipment. A contractor I hired burned out their impact driver just hanging artwork. The toilets suck too and are embedded in the wall so good luck servicing them.
Upper middle class is the top 10%…So yea, 9 out of 10 people aren’t doing so great.
Low end of Middle class, 50%, is still making a good college degreed salary (masters equivalent) in Europe. Middle end is making as much as a PhD in a tech company equivalent here.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/
So 1 in 2 have 6 years of college equivalent income and are making more than most Europeans, and 1 in 10 are comparably rich.
Comparably a good PhD (I. E. Employable) in America can pull 120-150k relatively easily, and 200k after a few years. Making as much as 3 times the European with the same education and experience.
E: European college costs are much lower though so it somewhat depends on how much debt you have to take too.
You’re reading that article completely wrong…the numbers you posted are medians for upper income earners. The median US worker does not have 6 years of higher ed. I think only 20-30% even have a bachelor’s.
The median income in the US is 50k as of 2022. The 90th percentile is 120k-130k.
Those are disgustingly low for not having universal health or any social safety net like the rest of the industrialized world.
50k is more than most Europeans make with 3-6 years of education… That’s my point.
It is low, but the take home in Europe is even lower like 25-30k, 60k before taxes with years of education, and you’re still paying €300 each month for public health insurance which takes up 5-10% of your income.
Some of my coworkers with PHDs and post docs and 5-10 years are only pulling 90k before taxes. An electric bike for example still costs €3-4k, and they have to pay for registration and insurance on it.
For me at least wait times for healthcare always seem to be shorter outside the US. Nearly 2 months for a CT scan vs same day
I had to wait 2.5 months for a simple blood test panel after seeing my doctor which took 2 months from scheduling.
In the US it was always same day at a Lab Corp outlet or on site. Cost a lot but I’d get results into the issue at least. The hospital here in Europe did a whole panel the same day I went to the ER…but my doctor didn’t want to bother getting it from them. And imaged me twice too, but again the doctor didn’t bother pulling those and ordered some months away.
I think you are confusing one European country with Europe.
Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, and Greece on the construction methods, AC, and Toliet. Haven’t been to Spain in a few years but they are suffering in the heatwave. Italy was 80+F late night last night when I was in Rome.
Healthcare wise my home region has some of the best on the continent. Perks of being the HQ of a national champion of the largest economy on the continent. If I have an emergency the hospital is very well equipped to handle patients from the nearby plants. Was more modern than any hospital I ever saw in the US.
I’ll see France in the next few months along with the Netherlands and Belgium. I’m not expecting things to be much different.
The Baltic and Nordic countries still have a mostly cold climate, so maybe things are better there, I’ll visit. In my neck of the woods it just never stops raining which has been a mixed bag.
If we want to compare incomes outside of my area than it’s even more extremely in favor of the US. I was basing my comparison on my employer’s payscales along with IG Metall (largest Union in Germany). We have some of the highest pays on the continent.
The literal only exceptions cost of living wise are cities like Munich which are comparable to NYC, LA, and SF but still cheaper from the time I’ve spent visiting it. I lived in all three of the aforementioned American cities for years.
What about happiness and quality of life?
Money buys quality of life and access to distractions thay may or may not make you happy.
My companies’ Pension plan for retirement is one of the best ones left and still pays comparably dog shit to an IRA and 401k. It’s irrelevant to me because I’m here to do work that makes me happy.
I certainly enjoy eating at the fanciest restaurant in the area every week because it’s what I used to pay for dog shit delivery in SF.
I can travel whenever I want, etc.
The only thing I’m unhappy about is not being in the same timezone as most of my friends.
Edit : like shit, my Mexican intern is struggling with his visa and might need a €10k loan from me to stay in Europe and it’s nice I can actually give him that. It’s untenable for the rest of the native European people on my team to even entertain such a thing, that was 1 month salary for me years ago in LA.
Sure, but Europe is not exactly poor (well some countries are).
More money is nice, but I prefer life here. And most of western Europe and especially northern Europe where I live outranks north America in pretty much every index and statistic I care about.
Canada seems pretty alright though. You do have the same stupid city planning that the USA does, which is a shame.
I don’t think that’s true at all. Your middle class percentage is tiny compared to most of Europe, and while you also earn a bit more, that money goes to a much stronger social safety net in most of Europe, too (at least in our more successful countries).
I would also wager that middle class workers are more comfortable here, because of guaranteed 5-7 weeks holiday, 37 hour work weeks (for the vast majority), guaranteed parental leave, and just generally a very unionized job market.
If you have $20 in your pocket, and no debt you are wealthier than most Americans. The average person in the US isn’t doing too great