cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/11153742
In a Dutch bar I ordered a few samples (which have no cost and were somewhat generous in size) and drank part way through them all. Then I ordered a full sized beer. I continued working on the samples.
Bartender asked if I wanted to pay now or start a tab. I asked if they accept cash. It feels silly to ask and I almost didn’t ask because the answer is always “yes”, of course. So I was shocked when the bartender said no.
WTF? Surely there would be enough customers who are wise enough to foresee possible consequences of having electronic records of alcohol consumption. It can only work against you, e.g. when the bank, data brokers, and insurance companies see an opportunity to collude and optimise your your insurance premiums using that info.
The GDPR would theoretically protect Europeans from that but bars are open to tourists – non-Europeans with non-European bank accounts. I mentioned that to the bartender, who said “what’s the GDPR?” Wow. I was shocked again.
I made it clear that electronic payment doesn’t work for me (most especially when alcohol, tobacco, or marijuana are involved). I said: can someone pay with their own account and take my cash? Bartender asked if I have exact change. No, I didn’t but I got close enough that the bartender was able to use the tip jar to give me change.
I later noticed that the menu book (1st page after the cover) says “cash not accepted”. But I initially missed that because I ordered off the posted board. And there’s no guarantee anyway that a customer would see the first page. I often flip straight to the last page to look for drinks. When I left the bar I had a look at the entrance and door. There was no cash-hostile signage like some other shops have.
Questions for Dutch folks:
If the bar had been less reasonable, less flexible, how else might this have played out? I did not sip from the full beer before the conversation, so I suppose the bar could have just treated it like an erroneous beer pour and pour it down the drain.
Suppose I had not thought to ask if cash was accepted. What if I drank the beer and then my cash were refused with both sides standing their ground? There is a practical problem here not just a legal one. The hundreds worth of banknotes in my pocket would be worthless. So would it be no different than the situation of a deadbeat debtor who simply does not pay? Would I be cited and fined? Would I have the option to leave the bar with an invoice to pay by bank transfer, perhaps using the post office? Would I have to leave collateral such as an ID card while running the errand? And what if it’s Sunday or after hours of the post office?
What about the case where someone enters with bank card(s) that are in a broken state, unknown to the card holder? I’ve been in grocery store lines where a customer tries all their cards. Often the last card they try works but I’ve seen a case where someone had to leave all their groceries. I’ve been in situations where a card in good standing is refused for being foreign (despite the rules of the card network). Are these situations legally any different than someone who simply has no cards to pay with?
There is a very wise “EU Recommendation” that cash be accepted on payments towards debts specifically (not necessarily points of sale). I believe if you have a bar/restaurant tab that would be a /debt/, not a /point of sale/. But what are EU recommendations good for? Is it just to guide lawmakers, or is there some courtroom value when national policy deviates from the recommendation?
FWIW, this thread is where I learned that cash acceptance is optional in Netherlands. The original post was censored but that cross-post mirrors it.
Not Dutch, but next time you go to a new place, check reviews or information regarding if they accept cash.
If this situation was different and you were adamant about paying in cash, you could argue that you don’t have enough money in your debit, but did have enough in cash. They might pity you, but you are still attempting to pay your debt, and if they don’t take it, you can argue that they refused the payment.
That’s exactly what I’m doing here. This is the purpose of this thread. That was not my first visit to Netherlands and it won’t be my last.
My questions are not really of the “how do I weasel out of this” variety. I can hack my way out of lots of situations. But those hacks are best constructed with an understanding the law and the how the system works, which is what I hope to gain. It would be nice to know if Dutch shops have a transparency obligation to post signage conveying their cash hostility. The suggestion is a reasonable hack for finding one’s self broad-sided by this situation. Though I imagine they would want proof: “show us your card does not work”. In which case I should ideally carry a card that I know is broken. But the best planning ahead is to train myself on avoiding such businesses to begin with.
Same in the UK by the way. Business are not obliged to accept cash, and plenty of them don’t. So if you only have one way of paying, either cash or card, better check first if the accept it.
The UK is this way on debts, where you consume a product or service before payment? Do you know the answer to any of my series of questions w.r.t the UK because that would be interesting as well.
Legal tender is only relevant for debts paid in courts etc. who have to accept the cash. It doesn’t apply in commercial businesses. Not sure how a bar/restaurant would deal with it if you only have cash and they don’t want to accept it, but for petrol stations it’s standard practice to get you to fill out a form promising to pay within a week if you can’t pay, for example because your bank card does not work.