Punching someone because they think taxes should be 10% lower = probably bad
Punching someone because they think human beings are property = probably good
A functioning society cannot endure everyone making snap moral judgements, which is why there are laws against violence, but I’ll never mourn a neoconfederate with a black eye or a Nazi with a broken nose.
I think not recognizing that the advocacy for the use of the state to enforce property rights over human beings IS advocacy for violence, and what’s more, advocacy for violence in an incredibly unjust cause, is a sign of moral myopia.
I agree with you on all of this. But advocacy of violence is not violence in itself, and retaliating against advocacy with actual violence is not self-defense.
I think advocating for violence is morally corrupt, whether you do it by raising the Confederate flag or talking about how much you enjoy assaulting the people who do so.
I agree to a point. Retaliating against advocacy of violence is not self-defense, which is why it’s not allowed. The state has a legitimate interest in maintaining the monopoly on force; and a democratic state must, by its nature, allow dissent even of the most vile and vulgar kind, if it is to maintain its legitimacy with regards to the suppression of views that might in different circumstances be dangerous - in other words, by convincing those opposed to it that a meaningless participation in the electoral process is preferable to armed insurgency.
But that doesn’t mean that punching Nazis is bad. It just means that there’s a pragmatic reason why it’s not allowed.
I’d argue that it’s both bad and pragmatically unsound. Victimizing someone doesn’t become acceptable just because they’re a bad person. If it’s not direct self-defense, it’s wrong.
But Nazis are by definition an active threat to me and mine. So punching them is always the correct answer.
History also shows that the only way to stop Nazis is to punch them often and early. An ideology built on hatred and violence needs to be stamped out by force, for the safety of everyone else.
Neo-confederates are not quite as bad, but still need a boot to the face every now and then to tell them that their hatred and bigotry is not kosher. Otherwise, they start looking for minorities to harm.
The government retains a monopoly on force because we (implicitly) agree that its use of force, in the form of institutions, is preferable, in its reliability and consistency, to individual use of force. Outside of the context of the concession of the monopoly of violence to a central authority or authorities; immediate self-defense is not the only valid use of violence.
Outside of that context; that is to say, regarding the morality and not the legality of an act, one would have to have a fucking death wish to disregard the use of violence outside of the context of immediate self-defense. That’s the whole reason cultures of honor get started - because if you do not react to threats and advocacy with force, because if you sit there and meekly let Clan McNazi from across the highlands whisper that all of ‘you people’ in your clan should be killed while you’re trying to work the fucking fields, because if you try to play tit-for-tat, all that ends with is you and all of your family in a shallow grave, or in chains.
In a civilized society, the position of reacting with force is taken up by the state, however flawed and imperfect this system is. We haven’t stopped reacting with force in non-self-defense contexts, we’ve merely outsourced it to a (theoretically) representative body.
I would argue that no, advocating for slavery is indeed violent. You’re advocating for someone else to get violent.
You shouldn’t be allowed to say “I’m just advocating” to defend yourself when the thing you’re advocating for actually happens, and is in fact violent. It means if anything you were afraid of retribution than you being actually against the idea.
Advocacy FOR WHAT. Go ahead, say it out loud. You can’t be this dense.
Advocacy for enslavement of other humans beings IS VIOLENCE. Period. Advocacy for the termination of an entire group of other people IS VIOLENCE.
You DO NOT get to debate another person’s right to exist. Period. End of fucking story. And the good people of the world WILL violently prevent you from enacting any of the things that you’re advocating for.
Advocacy FOR WHAT. Go ahead, say it out loud. You can’t be this dense.
Violence? The thing I’ve explicitly said multiple times in this thread?
I feel like most of you aren’t really responding to what I’m saying and are instead just repeating your points and insulting me because we disagree. Not everyone in here, though, thankfully
…Umm…It was advocacy for slavery, not advocacy for violence. The guy even said “Advocacy for enslavement” in the very next sentence.
Why did you just do that? Why did you just shift the argument incorrectly? Hell there’s other posts within the 30 minutes you’ve been posting where you clearly knew what the topic was.
But you have no way of knowing what the confederate flag means to them without actually having a conversation.
My guy, it’s a meme. See the sidebar - “joking in tone and detail, serious in sentiment.” It’s a criticism of the ‘heritage’ argument by blasely referring to Sherman’s March to the Sea, a campaign of property destruction which brought the traitorous, slaving South to its knees, as Yankee ‘heritage’. No one here is actually advocating for burning down people’s houses for the sin of flying a Confederate flag
Punching someone over a flag seems like one of those snap moral judgements you said a society cannot endure.
Yes, society cannot endure it. There’s a reason we don’t allow it.
That there is a reason that we don’t allow an action, that I support that reason, and that that reason is valid, is different than saying that the action is immoral.
Like…burning someone’s toddler alive. The blindingly obvious problem is they don’t have to live alone to fly a flag. Tell me it was an unacceptably racist labrador and you had no choice.
Punching someone because they think taxes should be 10% lower = probably bad
Punching someone because they think human beings are property = probably good
A functioning society cannot endure everyone making snap moral judgements, which is why there are laws against violence, but I’ll never mourn a neoconfederate with a black eye or a Nazi with a broken nose.
Why is that good?
If you need that to be explained, I think you’re in the wrong community.
Do you believe that not wanting them to be inflicted with indiscriminate violence means I agree with them?
I think not recognizing that the advocacy for the use of the state to enforce property rights over human beings IS advocacy for violence, and what’s more, advocacy for violence in an incredibly unjust cause, is a sign of moral myopia.
Man, you are such a poet, you have put it perfectly.
I agree with you on all of this. But advocacy of violence is not violence in itself, and retaliating against advocacy with actual violence is not self-defense.
I think advocating for violence is morally corrupt, whether you do it by raising the Confederate flag or talking about how much you enjoy assaulting the people who do so.
I agree to a point. Retaliating against advocacy of violence is not self-defense, which is why it’s not allowed. The state has a legitimate interest in maintaining the monopoly on force; and a democratic state must, by its nature, allow dissent even of the most vile and vulgar kind, if it is to maintain its legitimacy with regards to the suppression of views that might in different circumstances be dangerous - in other words, by convincing those opposed to it that a meaningless participation in the electoral process is preferable to armed insurgency.
But that doesn’t mean that punching Nazis is bad. It just means that there’s a pragmatic reason why it’s not allowed.
I’d argue that it’s both bad and pragmatically unsound. Victimizing someone doesn’t become acceptable just because they’re a bad person. If it’s not direct self-defense, it’s wrong.
In a vacuum, your pacifism might seem good.
But Nazis are by definition an active threat to me and mine. So punching them is always the correct answer.
History also shows that the only way to stop Nazis is to punch them often and early. An ideology built on hatred and violence needs to be stamped out by force, for the safety of everyone else.
Neo-confederates are not quite as bad, but still need a boot to the face every now and then to tell them that their hatred and bigotry is not kosher. Otherwise, they start looking for minorities to harm.
The government retains a monopoly on force because we (implicitly) agree that its use of force, in the form of institutions, is preferable, in its reliability and consistency, to individual use of force. Outside of the context of the concession of the monopoly of violence to a central authority or authorities; immediate self-defense is not the only valid use of violence.
Outside of that context; that is to say, regarding the morality and not the legality of an act, one would have to have a fucking death wish to disregard the use of violence outside of the context of immediate self-defense. That’s the whole reason cultures of honor get started - because if you do not react to threats and advocacy with force, because if you sit there and meekly let Clan McNazi from across the highlands whisper that all of ‘you people’ in your clan should be killed while you’re trying to work the fucking fields, because if you try to play tit-for-tat, all that ends with is you and all of your family in a shallow grave, or in chains.
In a civilized society, the position of reacting with force is taken up by the state, however flawed and imperfect this system is. We haven’t stopped reacting with force in non-self-defense contexts, we’ve merely outsourced it to a (theoretically) representative body.
Listen trucknuts. Can I call you trucknuts? Intolerance of intolerance is the only way through. Otherwise we get only more extreme.
I think you will find the violence quite discriminate against the category, “Those who advocate the enslavement of other humans.”
Why is it okay to respond to advocacy, which is not violent in itself, with actual violence?
“It would be great if PugJesus was riddled with bullets in the near future. I hope someone does it. In fact, I encourage you to do it!”
This is just advocacy of violence. Harmless. I should defeat it with the power of my own words.
How is the advocacy of slavery not violent?
It’s an ideology which inherently requires violence.
Slavery is, yes. The advocacy of slavery is not. It’s wrong and corrupt and only bad people do it, but it’s not violent.
I would argue that no, advocating for slavery is indeed violent. You’re advocating for someone else to get violent.
You shouldn’t be allowed to say “I’m just advocating” to defend yourself when the thing you’re advocating for actually happens, and is in fact violent. It means if anything you were afraid of retribution than you being actually against the idea.
How far does it have to go to be violence to you? Is a mob boss ‘suggesting’ someone be killed advocacy enough to be considered violence?
You are wrong. Plain and simple. Advocacy for the violent oppression of others is a violent act
Advocacy FOR WHAT. Go ahead, say it out loud. You can’t be this dense.
Advocacy for enslavement of other humans beings IS VIOLENCE. Period. Advocacy for the termination of an entire group of other people IS VIOLENCE.
You DO NOT get to debate another person’s right to exist. Period. End of fucking story. And the good people of the world WILL violently prevent you from enacting any of the things that you’re advocating for.
Violence? The thing I’ve explicitly said multiple times in this thread?
I feel like most of you aren’t really responding to what I’m saying and are instead just repeating your points and insulting me because we disagree. Not everyone in here, though, thankfully
…Umm…It was advocacy for slavery, not advocacy for violence. The guy even said “Advocacy for enslavement” in the very next sentence.
Why did you just do that? Why did you just shift the argument incorrectly? Hell there’s other posts within the 30 minutes you’ve been posting where you clearly knew what the topic was.
Begging the question the property damage is violence, aren’t we?
Also that advocating for enslavement of other humans isn’t violence, which it is.
I could understand not considering property damage to be violence, but how is advocacy violence in itself?
Why are you carrying water for The Klan? Let them bastards be thirsty.
You should read about the paradox of tolerance. Tolerating hate is in no society’s best interest.
I don’t think that idea holds much water. Too many people use it as a “get out of responsibility free” card.
I think you’re trying to wave it away as a way to get out of responsibility for what such conversation would inevitably lead to.
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My guy, it’s a meme. See the sidebar - “joking in tone and detail, serious in sentiment.” It’s a criticism of the ‘heritage’ argument by blasely referring to Sherman’s March to the Sea, a campaign of property destruction which brought the traitorous, slaving South to its knees, as Yankee ‘heritage’. No one here is actually advocating for burning down people’s houses for the sin of flying a Confederate flag
Yes, society cannot endure it. There’s a reason we don’t allow it.
That there is a reason that we don’t allow an action, that I support that reason, and that that reason is valid, is different than saying that the action is immoral.
Like…burning someone’s toddler alive. The blindingly obvious problem is they don’t have to live alone to fly a flag. Tell me it was an unacceptably racist labrador and you had no choice.
I saw you change the details, is it because deep in your heart you realize all Pomeranians are unacceptably racist? :p
Well, the smaller they are, the bitier they get, yeah.
It was an unacceptably racist Pomeranian